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This is what happens when you cater to survivors too much



  • Aven_FallenAven_Fallen Member Posts: 12,186

    But why should anyone get banned for having a different opinion than the majority on these Forums?

  • Aven_FallenAven_Fallen Member Posts: 12,186

    The big picture is that playing Killer is not as bad as people claim it is. In fact, it was the easiest it has ever been before CoH was released. Obviously it got harder with the release of CoH (which is expected, a new S-Tier Perk for Survivors will make Killer more difficult).

    But it is in no way miserable at all. And IMO, most players who complain about Killer being hard are those who are just not good at the game.

  • burt0rburt0r Member Posts: 2,737

    I never said they should but evidently many extreme biased forum members got banned in the last 6 months because most of their posts created a too heated atmosphere on the forums.

    I can remember the name of the small scale survivor biased ones (they got banned with less than 500 posts) but for example the counterpart to sluzzy, lord Toni.

    And my point is just like many people here post pro killer stuff for ages now, so i see you, Jonny and others more often than not shoot against those posts instead of ignoring them straight up.

    That was my original response to johnny when he said killer mains never stop, so don't you.

  • AdaezAdaez Member Posts: 859

    Man,have you ever dealt with 4 booners on a map like eyrie of crows with an m1 killer like Wraith?

    The main issue of all boons is coh,and it will never change until it gets properly nerfed,the fact you can heal at will in eyrie of crows main building where killer has to go above and beyond to snuff the boon and stop you from healing everytime.

    Same with RPD library,there are broken mechanics that absolutely shuts down more than half of the killer roster

  • MrPenguinMrPenguin Member Posts: 1,673

    I can only speak secondhand because camping bores me to the point I'd really rather just play something else than camp, so I don't do it.

    But from what I can understand its basically "I'm not having fun chasing someone and having to break 15 pallets for 1 down while 3 gens pop and struggling to get 1 kill by the end. So if I'm already not having fun, I might as well not have fun but get 2 kills by camping and having the survivors come to me."

    It sucks because they're right. They get better results while having the same lack of fun. They want chases to be fun, but with the amount of pallets, safe loops, and second chance perks to just negate when the killer does do something (DH) they just aren't. The survivors have too much power in chases to the point the killer just feels frustrated and helpless, relying on the survivor to mess up rather than making their own opportunity.

    So if chases aren't fun, then the game isn't fun. They figure they might as well focus on results.

    Exceptions being the killers who can actually do something like Nurse, Blight, and Spirit.

  • Aven_FallenAven_Fallen Member Posts: 12,186

    "That was my original response to johnny when he said killer mains never stop, so don't you."

    I mean, at least some people should have a different opinion here. Otherwise it would be pretty boring, eh?

    But nope, as long as someone is respectful, they dont get banned.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    If you consider how far back survivors have gotten meta changing perks compared to killer meta changing perks, then you will see survivors are the neglected stepchild of DbD.

    5 months ago, survivors got CoH, 1 meta perk for survivors. In that amount of time killers got Dead Man's Switch, Merciless Storm and Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance all meta perks that I see one or two of every game.

    But if you look back, the last meta changing perk for survivors was Windows of Opportunity. So between Windows or Opportunity and Circle of Healing, it has been 4 years since survivors have gotten a meta changing perk. Let me say that again, 4 years.

    Killers meta changing perks have been in the double digits in that amount of time. So Killers don't need to come here whining on the forums about how the developers aren't paying them enough attention.

  • MrPenguinMrPenguin Member Posts: 1,673
    edited March 30

    You're still talking quantity.

    Its better to have DS DH CoH UB for 4 years be disgusting top of the line to the point nothing else can compete, then get new shiny "I guess its good enough" perks every once in a while.

    Maybe putting it terms of numbers might show things better. Someone's getting paid 100 per hour (PH), it took 4 years for them to get 1 raise to 120 PH. Someone else got paid 10 an hour, but they got 4 raises and now they're at 90 PH. But the 120 person is complaining they didn't get 4 raises they only got 1 and that they have it worse when they're still getting more.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752
    edited March 30

    What it's really like is the Developers give Killer-players a Ferrari every patch and Survivors have to hope the Honda Accord they got 4 years ago doesn't get removed because Killer-players think survivor-players don't deserve anything.


    Least I remind you that Killer-players are working overtime on getting Circle of Healing and Dead Hard removed from survivor players. Decisive Strike was already nerfed hard and Decisive Strike and Borrowed Time are pretty much required by survivors, otherwise they are getting tunneled-off-hook-till-dead from gen 5.

  • MrPenguinMrPenguin Member Posts: 1,673
    edited March 30

    right because Call of Brine taking away 30 seconds of 1/4 survivors time on 1 gen if left alone for 60 seconds is clearly better then CoH completely invalidating an entire playstyle and running the meta ever since its creation, letting people heal in 10 seconds in an AoE. /s

  • MrPenguinMrPenguin Member Posts: 1,673
    edited March 30


    Responding to the edit here

    It doesn't matter if they're trying to get it nerfed, not "removed", if nothing actually gets done. CoH and DH should be nerfed, they're way too strong. But as things are now, those perks are running the show. If it takes 4 years like DS did then we can talk in 4 years.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752
    edited March 30

    CoH has already been nerfed twice and the developers have already said they're going to do something about Dead Hard.

    And as for them being 2 strong. There has been absolutely no proof that Dead Hard is any stronger that Sprint Burst, Overcome, Lithe or even Balanced Landing for extending chases. Killers don't like it because it's an in your face perk and survivors like it because it's a fun perk that requires precision and timing from survivors, compared to the other exhaustion perks that are brain-dead.

    CoH is strong because the developers needed it strong enough for survivors to use it. It was meant to be a secondary objective to slow down gens. If it wasn't strong enough, survivors wouldn't use it and go back to adrenaline, resilience and spine chill while ignoring healing, like they were doing before. Is that really what you want to see, faster gens?

    No, killer-players can't stand survivor-players getting anything and just want survivors to be so helpless so they can just go in and get 4k after 4k.

  • MrPenguinMrPenguin Member Posts: 1,673
    edited March 30

    It got 2 nerfs that did close to nothing. Its not "how many nerfs" its "how impactful were those nerfs". DS needed 4 years to be fine, MoM took much less time. The amount of nerfs/buffs doesn't really matter, its the end result. Like these Legion and GF changes don't really matter if the killer's end up still being trash at the end of it.

    Idk what you want for "proof", so I can't really say much on that one. To me the perk has more than shown its over tuned and the majority of the playerbase seems to agree

    Idc for the reasons/excuses why they made the perk too strong, the point is they did and it needs to be reigned in. If anything this shows what I was saying earlier where survivor perks need to be disgusting to be used because the current perks are too strong. Gen speed are not the only factor. Yes I would take slightly faster gens over COH because the time loss of CoH is much greater on the killer side then the survivor side meaning killer's would be better off. It doesn't matter if gens take a little longer if the reason why is to make it so the killer can't reasonably build any pressure to gain any momentum.

    At the end of the day, the survivor ended up even better. If their goal was to slow down survivors objective then they failed as what they actually did was slow down killers objective by an even larger margin, not only defeating the purpose but exacerbating the already existing issue.

    The last line is just victimizing survivors and villainizing killers. There's no point in doing that. it just as easy to say survivors just feel entitled to free second chances and saves from all their bad plays and can't stand the though of not having 5 get out of jail free cards because they're all trash. That line of argument does nothing for anyone. If that's how you feel that's how you feel, but it doesn't actually help your argument. The point is it doesn't matter if nothing gets done about it. We should look at the points they're making, regardless of who says them, killer or survivor.

    Post edited by MrPenguin on
  • NekoGamerXNekoGamerX Member Posts: 4,666

    they the should do that I mean MMR does nothing so why can't we switch in lobby like survivors?

    also I want to be able to switch between survivor and killer again not have to go to main menu to go back and forth.

  • MigrantTheGreatMigrantTheGreat Member Posts: 1,291

    And IMO, most players who complain about Killer being hard are those who are just not good at the game.

    While I respect your opinion i'm going to heavily disagree! Your essentially saying that the "Players Skill" is the issure when really it's "Poorly Designed Character's" with a mechanic that's "No Longer Relavent".

    For example, slicing the skin off a pineapple (btw pineapples do go on pizza), with a rusty dull knife

    Your saying the person that's using the rusty knife is the problem, even though you ain't cutting/slicing anything with a dull knife.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,836

    What is “giving contra”?

    Also, just because you have a problem with me agreeing with someone doesn’t mean I “can’t stop” commenting. That’s what the forums are for right?

    The difference is that I think before I post. So for instance posting about the devs “catering” to survivors more when they are just about to drop an update which gives the killer side buffs, seems pointless and silly.

    What that tells me is either you just don’t care about the facts or you are just more concerned about arguing regardless of the changes.

  • KurriKurri Member Posts: 1,599

    There is a clear win condition for the Killer. Literally t he screen says at the end of the trial if the Entity was displeased or not.

    I am really getting tired of the amount of people saying this game doesn't have clear win conditions, or "you gotta make your own win conditions". No. There are clear win conditions, but you can choose to ignore them for your own.

    The Killer's job is to please the entity, or else the entity punishes them with torture. The end of the match the first thing you see is if you pleased the entity or not, and an idea of just how well you did the murdering.

    Survivors is pretty easy to understand. Escape. It's the first thing you see at the end of the tiral if you died or not. Now sure, some people change that win condition to more escapes for your team, or how much impact you made that match.

    Some people leave their victory up to pipping or not - cool.

    But the game does tell you if you win or not.

  • feechimafeechima Member Posts: 747

    So you're saying you've seen drastic changes in your games where you are losing because CoH was brought into it? And what playstyle is it nerfing, the hit and run? Slugging? Sloppy Butcher?

  • KingFieldShipperKingFieldShipper Member Posts: 159

    So, I think it's worth pointing out that the message on the end screen is only related to how many pips you got. Are you trying to tell me a 3k + hatch in ash iv - which can result in a merciless (double pip) is no longer a win at silver iv when requirements for pips changes? You will get entity displeased at any rank getting the evil within achievement with myers, but if you get that, does that mean you lost? Emblems were never meant to be a win condition.

    The introduction of mmr is what introduced a win condition, which, I might add, they originally DIDN'T even want to tell us what was the conditions for it so people wouldn't cheese it, or exploit it, until there was a leak and it finally getting clarification in the next q&a. But even then there are factors we don't know about since mmr is calculated (from a killer perspective) as a 1v1v1v1 - survivors with theoretically all different mmrs and it performs calculations by that, so we can't even base a win on that either.

    For me, a win is still a 3k w/ hatch or 4k regardless, 2 is a draw. While I don't think you can get displeased with a 1k, I think it's disingenuous to say emblems were ever a true win conditions.

  • burt0rburt0r Member Posts: 2,737

    What i mean by "giving contra" is calling posts and comment out for being obviously whiny or biased without any further substance. It's just redundant. People that aren't biased already know it and those that don't won't care either way if you post your unconstructive calling out the obvious or not.

    And in this case especially i aimed at your wording "it will never stop" and the irony that neither will you or the other mentioned people stop calling out the obvious. The biased posters will never change their ways because you call them out on it but i don't see you stopping your fruitless endeavor either.

    Just like i think that repestedly commenting in sluzzies rambles "oh sluzzy" or that they must be trolling in every of their posts, just for the sake of it and hoping to deter them from posting the same over the top stuff again and again, which some people really do repeatedly instead of just ignoring those posts.

    All it gives is hundreds of comments worth of attention to something that could easily just be ignored which would be far more efficient.

    And yes in this case i didn't care about the facts and focused more on behaviour and the irony, just like my comments weren't even remotely aimed at the topic.

    (I don't know if i get my point across with this as i write it just after getting up still drowsy and as a non native speaker, but truth to be told i don't really care at this point.)

  • MrPenguinMrPenguin Member Posts: 1,673
    edited March 31

    I mean I play both sides so I'm winning and losing more since CoH depending on which side I'm playing. It did definitely make a noticeable difference. Hit and run is known to be incredibly weak rn just because of the perk, that's the one I was talking about. I didn't name it because most people know by now what someone means when they see that. The person I was responding to has been around for a while so I figured they knew, which it seems like they did.

    Without hit and run the only thing left chase wise is to commit to every chase or leave before even starting it. Even if you get multiple hits in, if you don't down them they'll be healed up very quickly. So its also caused an uptick in tunneling scenarios as well which no one wants.

    Sloppy butcher isn't a playstyle, but It does weaken that perk to a degree since it just overpowers it with room to spare. 3 gens are an extreme slog now on both sides since they can just drop a boon on the other side of the map and its just a back and forth of "hit, killer not leaving the 3 gen, survivor runs across the map, heals, comes back, survivor not looping around the 3 gen" and repeat.

    It just makes it way to easy and quick to heal and effects the entire survivor team an unlimited amount. You don't have to find teammates or struggle healing as survivor, just get to 1 of the boons, you can't keep health states as killer, they'll just run to the boon that's highlighted for them.

  • MissBehavingXMissBehavingX Member Posts: 493

    wait so you're saying that it went down from 70% kills to almost literally half kills? so it got more balanced? ahhh I see, its bad when killers kill only half, they must have 4ks, always, i see.

    killers killing half and the other half escaping seems pretty balanced to me, 2 got to die and 2 got to escape, people say survivors are so entitled but i've seen so many complaints here because killers can't 4k, bruh...

  • unluckycombounluckycombo Member Posts: 582

    Tbf the game is just in a rough spot on both sides rn. I've been playing since 2018, and I think this is the longest I've gone without wanting to play DBD in a while.

    There's been a lot of things that really shouldn't have been added to the game that have came out in the past year that still haven't addressed really major issues with the game. (For example, Deadlock and CoH never should have came to this game, and I will adamently stand by that- I think both of those perks specifically are awful for the game, and that's not including the fact that we had a lot of Killers back to back with very similar core gameplay concepts back to back. Meanwhile, Solo Survivors are still extremely underpowered, the meta is overwhelming on both sides, which has been something that has just been more evident since MMR. Add-On scaling still isn't great for a lot of Killers. Blight still has insane add-ons, while Ghostface is only just now getting an add-on rework we've been asking for for years.)

    Imho I just think that the direction that they've been going in recently has (Outside of Deadlock and Circle of Healing) have been fine or even great from the perspective of balance. But if the experience doesn't feel good to play as, or play against, then people aren't going to want to play. I love playing this game, but I also don't like the absolute lack of perk variety we see, or getting/watching someone get tunneled or facecamped from first to death hook. I won't talk about things from the Killer perspective, since I've never enjoyed the Killer role in any meaningful capacity, but the cycle that both Killer and Survivor players are in where it's a matter of who plays with the best perks and who plays in the most boring way imaginable (AKA: Who's better at holding W, or who's better at camping/tunneling) does make pubs drag. Some nights are great and fun with friends. Others will leave you wanting to leave after two games.

  • MissBehavingXMissBehavingX Member Posts: 493

    "if you kill them, it means you won" some people see it that way, same with escapes, if you escaped you won. To me that is not the case, if i escaped but couldnt do much and got very few points and didnt pip is a loss, the game doesnt even count total number of kills or escapes, even if theres an emblem specific for those 2, as long as I get enough points/pip is a win for me, at the end of the day the only thing left to do in this game is either get stuff from the bloodweb or leveling up your characters and both need points, getting red ranks is no longer to show how good you are, I just want the 1M BP to keep getting stuff and leveling up characters.

  • AdaezAdaez Member Posts: 859
    edited March 31

    Survivor mains defending perks like coh and dead hard will never stop being funny,and sad..

    The best course of action of dealing with entitled and biased people towards one side is just straight up ignore them,they will always find an excuse for their side,its actually so sad.

  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 12,645

    Maybe read what i was answering to.

    It holds some context.

    Hint "killers win the majority of their games"

  • AdaezAdaez Member Posts: 859

    Killers win the majority of the games only exploiting survivors mistakes,because there's no other way if the survivors play good and coordinated when the game is survivor sided.

  • burt0rburt0r Member Posts: 2,737

    The best thing is they commented on another post from sluzzy, mentioning imaginary kill rates "way above 50%", a little bit later themselves.

    And completely ignoring the Killrate statement there.

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