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Legion may actually be worse or side-graded due to Duration add-on removal

CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

Before anyone goes to insult me because I have a feeling people will disagree with my point before I make it, please hear me out on this entirely before arguing otherwise.

Some context before I get to the point, otherwise skip this paragraph. Legion has been and will remain one of my most played killers so I have heavy amounts of hours on them. I was never able to fully utilize legion as effectively as some against my fellow PC players due to my control scheme but I would argue I was still above average with them (I am a controller PC player due to wrist issues with my arms). I honestly was never convinced legion was as bad as people claim because of the immense pressure of a frenzy chain on gen progress.

Legion as they are on the live version is difficult to get to a second survivor to start a frenzy chain normally unless you run, specifically, the duration add-ons. However, on PTB, these duration add-ons are practically nonexistent (a yellow add-on for very minor speed per hit but adds up very fast after second survivor hit and a brown with only 2 second duration increase). I believe that, without duration add-ons, duration buffs, or a better speed increase add-on for legion's first hit (higher move speed increase), that it is way harder to chain to your second survivor in a frenzy chain which was most of legion's map pressure. If you can somehow reach the second survivor in time and start the chain, I have noticed that it is almost guaranteed to hit the other two with the yellow add-on but this is way more rare than before. I, on average, can only frenzy chain once per match or not at all anymore which makes the buffs part of these changes feel null as you don't get to experience them.


If I am wrong or I am missing something please help me to change my point of view as I want to view these changes as completely positive for them. I have been excited for these changes since they were announced but I feel the removal of this type of add-on is a big issue and I would much prefer it over the detection range add-on as a good legion will have enough map knowledge to figure out which direction to go for other survivors without it.

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Comments

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    I forgot to say, I do feel that, overall, this entire patch is good for the game and shows BHVR's passion for fixing the issues plaguing the current experience such as Haddonfield itself. I am very happy they are looking into these two killers and that map to improve game balance and health.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    Also, if any other legion mains have discovered new add-on combinations that are fun or make them stronger than before, please share them so I can try it out to see if it changes my opinion.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206
    edited April 5

    This post was a duplicate of my post at 2:23 EST. For some reason, this post didn't post so I thought my browser was having issues and reposted it. To read this post go two posts down.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    Honestly, since they want to keep the duration of frenzy between hits for counter play, I think making the yellow move speed add-on base kit and making that add-on add on another 0.1 m/s on top of that would be enough. It is so close to being good but off by enough to not feel like they are buffed but possibly nerfed right now.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    The discordance example is one I noticed as well. If I activate it standing near to two survivors, the second has enough time normally to either run in a straight line farther than I can reach with my power or get to a pallet and play it for time after a short sprint of distance. This was a problem with no add-on legion on the live version as well hence duration add-ons were important.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    From what I am seeing as a response to other posts, it seems I am not alone in thinking the duration add-on removal makes this an overall net negative or sidegrade from old legion which is a little disappointing to see. I was hoping others would be able to change my mind on that.

  • YOURFRIENDYOURFRIEND Member Posts: 2,302

    Yeah without the extra duration addons the strongest counter to legion(booking it as soon as you see mend) is even stronger, with no option for legion to remedy it. Bummer to see them turn mural sketch from one of their best add-ons to something completely pointless.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    I actually like the add-on but they need at least one or two other add-ons to have duration on them. Hopefully we can see a duration add-on of the same length as the current green add-on.

  • supersonic853supersonic853 Member Posts: 4,395
    edited April 5

    Yeah i agree we need a duration addon back or base duration buffed. (Im not referring to the common or never sleep since one is minor and the other makes you slow).Give me more duration+the movement speed addon gosh dangit. If 2 survivors split in opposite directions the duration addons made it possible to get the other one. Currently its very difficult to impossible.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    I hope BHVR sees this thread and responds at least. If they aren't willing to make either of those changes or make the move speed bonus greater, I would at least like to fully understand why. I will still be a legion main but with a much weaker legion I suppose.

  • typervadertypervader Member Posts: 287

    Just buff the base duration to 12 seconds and i think its fine

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    That is still shorter than stolen sketchbook which I believe raises it to 13 seconds or 14.5 with the yellow and green together but that should work so long as the current add-on that raises duration (brown rarity) still increases it by 1.5-2 seconds.

  • typervadertypervader Member Posts: 287

    Yea, just a small increase combined with the new movespeed should be fine.

  • AltarfAltarf Member Posts: 1,044

    I mean, the Mischief List got buffed to +2 seconds, which is in-between the Mural Sketch and Stolen Sketchbook in terms of numbers. And there's the meme add-on, too. Duration hasn't been entirely removed - 2 seconds is a big deal on a 10 second power that refills when you hit someone - and with the extra speed from Frenzy and the potential instadown, I can understand them not wanting to let people get 15+ second frenzies and almost guaranteed downs.

  • FFirebranddFFirebrandd Member Posts: 2,087
    edited April 5

    So... sorta.

    Honestly this is looking a bit like Ghost Face's change to his recharge he got a bit ago. His max potential with double recharge was nerfed but any other combo was buffed.

    Legion is honestly looking very similar.

    Hopefully that's readable... well... it is if you click into it.

    But if you look at that...

    1. With no add ons, New Legion is just flat better than Old Legion.
    2. New Legion + New Mischief List is looking very similar to Old Legion + Sketch Book. Which is much easier to run every game.
    3. New Legion hasn't quite got anything close to challenging old Sketchbook + Mural.

    Short story is this, unless you only ever ran Legion with Double Duration... they're just better on the PTB.

    Edit: Oops... New + Pills + Mural vs a running Survivor was very wrong. Fixed it.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    Very useful info but that 0.6 difference between new + list vs current + Green is big enough that it is hard to get the second survivor since both survivors are going opposite directions making additive distances while chasing the first. Survivors move at 4.0m/s so that is nearly 4m gap increase since it is an extra half a second of them going opposite directions + any pallet they reach then double that for the time to travel backwards. I believe I did that math on that correct but if I didn't I apologize.

    Perhaps this issue has always been present with legion but didn't show itself or at least wasn't addressed as harshly as it is now by the survivors.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    I don't know if you have forum notifications on but that could be really hopeful for information's sake. Either way, the data you provided is highly useful.

  • Dsg4041Dsg4041 Member Posts: 61

    I think the new Add-ons are too good now to have any real Frenzy duration increase, or big Frenzy duration add-on. Like, simply run the Sloppy Butcher add-on with the Ruin add-on, and you have so much insane value doing Frenzy hits without getting any Chain hits the entire match (which is very possible, sadly. I agree with the OP on that.).

  • FFirebranddFFirebrandd Member Posts: 2,087
    edited April 5

    I think you misunderstood the numbers. All the numbers in the middle and on the right are in meters, not seconds. The middle ones are merely Duration * Speed Difference between Legion and the Survivors. So... New Legion with List should be able to get the first hit on a running survivor who's about 14 meters away.

    Also... That's the range on the first hit. Aka the one right after you push right click (or whatever use power is on console) and Legion flips up their knife. Catching the 2nd Survivor would be looking at the 2nd Hit column where New + List is 16.8m and Old + Sketch is 15m.

    Pills + List is... vs Runner: 1st 13.2m, 2nd 17.6m, 3rd 22m, 4th 26.4m. Vs Not Running: 1st 101.2m, 2nd 105.6m, 3rd 110m, 4th 114.4m.

    Can we nickname that Legion "Marathon Legion"? Cause like... those total range numbers are looking ridiculously long.

  • YOURFRIENDYOURFRIEND Member Posts: 2,302

    ..... It's not ruin. Ruin is double the rate of the addon. It makes them regress at the normal regression rate which is basically nothing. This combo you're postulating is half as good as what you think it is.

  • Dsg4041Dsg4041 Member Posts: 61

    I knew that but I still think it's insane value. That's like having the Oppression Perk and it's always on without having to kick Gens.

    Even in the light of it being a very bad version of Hex Ruin, it is still insane value. Healing and Mending before repairing the gen is some regression. Having to unhook someone across the map is some regression. Getting chased with Legion not needing to kick the gen is some regression. And you can't one-tap it either, like as if you were trying to stop the damage from a Pop or a Brine.

    To me, the only Nerf to Legion was losing the map-wide terror radius from Iri Button as it gave full info. I'd take that nerf and the "still not being able to Chain Frenzy hits really" for the exchange of these sweet add-on changes.

  • YOURFRIENDYOURFRIEND Member Posts: 2,302

    You seem to be under the impression that it continually causes gens to regress after the frenzy duration is over. It does not. It's analogous to cleansing ruin and seeing a gen stop regressing. Nothing like Oppression at all. The effect is okay. Maybe kind of bad. Chain hits and keeping survivors injured easily is what is fun about legion and it's not worth losing in exchange for a lot of these weird addon changes.

  • Dsg4041Dsg4041 Member Posts: 61
    edited April 6

    Oh dang, I didn't know the Ruin effect only lasted with the Frenzy duration. And the gens stop regressing after the Frenzy too? Just double-checking in case you have the Add-on on PTB. Thank you. You definitely convinced me we need a Frenzy duration buff or the Duration add-ons back again then((

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    Yep, the regression activates when you go into frenzy and insta-ends when frenzy ends at the normal kick regression rate. That is the equivalent to kicking a gen and a survivor tapping it after only 10 seconds with no perks or add-ons to speed up that regression. It is nice honestly to mess around with but nowhere near as good as legion's other add-ons.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    Just noticed the end of this post. I absolutely agree the chain hits are what makes legion fun and also is their biggest strength. With lower duration for the first 2 hits but greater than that at 3rd and 4th survivor I feel they are worse due to those being the most important hits.

  • YOURFRIENDYOURFRIEND Member Posts: 2,302

    Yeah they seem to be leaning into getting one easy health state at the beginning and chasing off that with the fatigue cooldown. Which is fine...... Just not interesting to me.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    Absolutely agreed. The 5th hit downs change was amazing but you will rarely if at all see it in most games.

  • SkeletalEliteSkeletalElite Member Posts: 2,314
    edited April 6

    Gonna copy paste my comments from the other similar thread about why I disagree

    Now you can run the addon for more speed boost and 2 extra seconds. This means your first chain rush will take you 66 meters which is only slightly worse, your second will be 69.6 which is very slightly worse, and third 73.2 which is about the same. Not to mention some of that extra distance is coming from more speed rather than more duration which is slightly more valuable because the catch up rate that you gain on a survivor running away from you is higher. I think 66 meters @ 5.5 m/s is about the same as 73 @ 5.2. If you can manage more chain hits than that I personally believe the speed is actually better.


    But that's also the worse addon set. If you use the never sleep pills and the addon for extra speed on hit, you have absolutely insane reach, with 98 meters on your first chain rush, 104 meters on your second chain rush, and 108 on your third. While being fast is slightly more valuable than duration, you're getting SO much duration here that it's well worth it and the speed add on does help quite a bit to nullify the downside.


    I decided to do the match considering catch up rates as well because I think it will make my point even more clear.


    When running at 5.2 m/s you gain on a survivor at 1.2 m/s which means with 14 seconds of duration you can reach survivors within 16.8 meters if they perfectly optimize their running away from you. (Live legion)


    When running at 5.5 m/s you gain on a survivor at 1.5 m/s which means with 12 seconds of duration you can reach survivors within 18 meters of you if they optimize their run path(PTB legion with speed and brown duration, 1 hit)


    When running at 5.8 m/s you gain on a survivor at 1.8 m/s which means with 12 seconds of duration you can reach survivors within 21.6 meters if they perfectly optimize their run path (PTB legion with speed and brown duration, 2 hits)



    Now for the stronger addons


    When running at 4.9 m/s you have a gain rate of .9 m/s which means with 20 seconds of duration you can reach survivors within 18 meters with perfectly optimized running. (PTB with speed and green duration, 1 hit)


    When running at 5.2 m/s you have a gain rate of 1.2 m/s which means with 20 seconds of duration you can reach survivors within 24 meters if they perfectly optimise their running. (PTB with speed and green duration, 2 hits)



    Even if survivors aren't perfectly optimal, thats irrelevant, since its equally applicable to slower move speed

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