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Hemorrhage affecting survivor recovery - Why I think it's a bad idea

BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306
edited April 5 in 5.7.0 PTB Feedback

[Since this is now confirmed as intended by design, I've rewritten my initial thoughts]:

So, let's start with the tactic of slugging and why I think this not only heavily incentivises and rewards it but also forces survivors into lose/lose situations

1) By default survivors cannot move and recover, meaning they have to make a choice the moment the killer decides to slug them - crawl away from the area and not be recovered I.E wasting more of their teammates time or recover on the spot and THEN begin crawling toward their teammates for a pickup.

2) A survivor who is in the dying state is essentially out of the game without certain perks, which effectively turns a 4 v 1 into a 3 v 1 temporarily, this is why anti-slugging perks are somewhat commonplace in coordinated teams as it is the most time effective manner of dealing with the tactic

On paper, against some killers this change isn't a big deal as they lack the capability and more importantly, lethality/mobility to fully capitalise on the pressure however I feel the need to point something out:

Insta-down killers & the high mobility killers such as Nurse/Blight now have an even easier time slugging an entire team to death because now slugged survivors either stay still and recover (aka the killer can't lose them) or they move and have to wait a long time to be healed which quite frankly won't happen against these high pressure killers

One of the big risks when it comes to slugging as a playstyle is the fact that you can lose your slugs, this mechanic essentially nullifies that. The other big risk is anti-slugging perks. It's a gamble.

This will be a boon (no pun intended) to the killers who already excell when slugging - Oni, Twins, Blight, Nurse, Bubba and will help the M1 killers who can easily capitalise on survivor mistakes by slugging without going out of their way to do it but I really don't think the stronger killers like Nurse or Blight need something like this to increase their pressure.

If this change makes it to live (which It could - I'm not demanding people get the pitchforks out or anything), anti-slugging perk stonks will be through the roof which I'm sure the killers not running hemorrhage related stuff will not appreciate.

Post edited by Brokenbones on
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Comments

  • dbd900bachdbd900bach Member Posts: 401

    I don't believe any perk in the game currently drains downed recovery progress. There are perks that make it slower but that's about it so it might be a bug

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306

    Thank you Mandy!

    I'm gonna re-title this thread if that's okay, gonna write a more detailed bit of feedback

  • MandyMandy Administrator, Co-ordinator, BHVR Posts: 19,340
  • MikaelaWantsYourBoonMikaelaWantsYourBoon Member Posts: 3,769

    This is just so much, hope it gets removed because it is lose/lose case for survivors.

  • CybilCybil Member Posts: 938

    It makes me wonder if it would be better off effecting the downed survivors healing time rather than making them lose progress.

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306

    I've re-organised this thread into a feedback about the change and updated my thoughts on it

    Hopefully people can use this thread to discuss the change, whether they think it's a good/bad idea

  • DriplordDrewDriplordDrew Member Posts: 246

    I mean as long as I am holding the recover button I see no problem arising other then trying to crawl away but by that point either there is only 1 person other then me and they are getting chased. I guess while I was writing this if I am trying crawl to someone to heal me it could be a problem. I was fine with losing progress while in an injured state but in a dying state IDK.

  • MozicMozic Member Posts: 601

    It's definitely an intriguing idea! I think the issue right now might be that for a downed survivor, they will need to commit to staying still the moment they begin to recover. A bit of leeway could be having the hemorrhage regression reduced on downed survivors.

    I'd foresee sloppy butcher + nurse's calling builds returning on M1 killers and being potentially very effective! And similarly, the already functional Flip Flop + Tenacity + Power Struggle + Unbreakable anti-slug build would be a worthwhile counter to these builds. The question functionally becomes whether or not survivors think its worth dedicating their entire build to countering slug builds, and by extension whether or not a meta based around specialized builds (and counters to those specialized builds) is more engaging than one where one-size-fits-all multipurpose builds (Dead Hard + DS + Adrenaline) should remain undisputed kings of the hill.


    Personally? We already have a softer version of the former - hex builds vs. cleanse builds. We'd just be seeing another front open up with anti-heal/slug builds vs. heal/anti-slug builds.

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306
    edited April 5

    The problem is, the counter to this is already meta and will become even more required if slugging becomes a more enticing and viable strat. Especially against the strongest killers in the game who already slug really well

    Unbreakable will go back to being a full staple and you might start seeing 4 of them like you do with DH, since at least Unbreakable makes the recovery time not go to waste and let's you get it back faster if you have to crawl for whatever reason.

    I already hate feeling like I need to run DS, I really hope I don't start feeling the need to run UB as well is my worry

  • moonwinxmoonwinx Member Posts: 42

    I heavily agree that losing recovery is a bad idea, especially at the same rate at losing healing progress. It could create some really nasty combos with perks/add ons that cause the blindness effect (especially for solo que teams). It also encourages slugging when there is no other survivor around, which is really unfun and I don't think healthy for the game.

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306

    That's also a really good point

    Recovering on the ground is already slow by default, so punishing survivors for moving after fully recovering (The game even tells you to "Find help!") and taking away all that progress faster than you gained it does seem really unfair

    I hadn't even thought of that, thanks for bringing that up!

  • MozicMozic Member Posts: 601

    I understand that! When I play survivor I definitely feel pressure to load up with as much personal survival as possible - though I guess my thought is just that it's nearly impossible (if not actually impossible) for each survivor to be prepared for everything. At some point, there's a vulnerability - tunneling, camping, slugging, powerful hex perks, punishing gen regression - the more variety there is in killer tactics, the more stress it puts on survivors to try and be able to go into every match with the tools they need. Ultimately, I think that variety is a good thing, since killer variety will mandate survivor ingenuity.

    If builds aimed at halting your Pop + Ruin + Corrupt + BBQ Blights work well enough in all other scenarios, you're both not going to see survivors deviate much from those builds & playstyles nor other killers deviate from their own (since the entire rest of the meta is shaped around reactions to the most powerful killer builds)

    So I guess tl;dr - it seems big enough to be meta affecting, which is good. There are already tools in-game available to combat it, which is also good. It has the potential to be oppressive against survivors who don't bring those tools, but it'd have to be to potentially influence the meta. Right?

  • DriplordDrewDriplordDrew Member Posts: 246

    I forgot Tenacity was even a perk but your right if you want to move while not losing recovery Tenacity is the way to go lol.

  • SakurraSakurra Member Posts: 1,046

    This shouldn't be a thing

  • PatchNoirPatchNoir Member Posts: 553

    As a killer main this will be not good, more people will be forced in a unbrekable meta or something like that, sometimes we need to crawl out because the killer slugs just to wait for ds and losing the chance of getting up is not a good thing.

    of course this can be seen as a slug build buff, and will be pretty broken with knockout and some killers, but thinking about the meta (nurse,blight) is busted.

    it can be a feature to weak killers but for the meta ones... if the developers dont want to balance perks and these things among specific killers is better to not have it

  • randonlyrandonly Member Posts: 366

    I still haven't been matched on PTB with killer using hemorrhage addon or perk, but honestly it was obvious that this was going to be super strong and encourage unhealthy ways to play as killer, making SWF and killers with enormous mobility and power to slug the game more strong, and making the SoloQ experience miserable. And apparently people are still saying that you can't move while on the ground, because it affects the recovery bar. Extremely broken.

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306

    I think it affecting regular healing is completely fine, it means survivors need to heal in a safe place and have to commit to it

    I just don't think having it affect recovery is a fair thing for the status effect to impact because a survivor in the dying state is already very limited in what they can do

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    I think it is fine if they start nerfing those strong killers' add-ons to compensate that are too much strength for them without dedicating a build to it.

  • sizzlingmario4sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 3,318

    They just need to make hemorrhage not affect recovery. This is seriously such a bad change

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206
    edited April 5

    The new version of the status effect is a good change as the original status effect was useless. Also, this status effect counters the current boon + healing meta currently for the weak killers. I think this can even be stated to be absolutely necessary unless they nerf all healing for survivors which makes their gameplay feel even worse.

  • AGMAGM Member Posts: 597

    But it doesn't just affect healing progress, it also affects a survivor in the dying state's recovery progress. Hemorrhage affecting recovery is a really unfun and poorly thought out mechanic. Please remove this.

  • CyberianFauxCyberianFaux Member Posts: 206

    Could they not just remove the effect from dying survivors to fix the issue? I see no reason that they couldn't just do that.

  • BrokenbonesBrokenbones Member Posts: 4,306

    That's what this thread is about yeah

    At first I wasn't sure if it was a bug but Mandy very kindly clarified it, so I made the thread into more of a feedback on the subject kinda thing

  • CrowmanCrowman Member Posts: 5,566

    The recovery process is just another form of healing progress.

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