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Nurse needs nerf

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  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    My rank gold 3, in the 2 matches I played today, the Nurse came 2 times and they both did 4k lmao

  • SamsungSidneySamsungSidney Member Posts: 34

    Get good

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    Not impossible with Nurse lol. She is powerful even without an add-on, and she becomes even more powerful with an add-ons. Pallets in the game, but you can't drop them, because even if you drop them, you can't stun her. The Nurse against of you must be a rookie, so that you can stun her

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    If we ignore that it passes through almost all the walls, pallets and ceilings/floors in the game, she is the most powerless killer

  • drsoontmdrsoontm Member Posts: 2,445

    Given your statements about her, I'm not sure you are in a position to call anybody a rookie.

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    I think it would be fairer for the killers to play without camping and tunneling, and for the survs to play without teabag every time they drop a pallet

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    The problem is that the other killers are very weak, but the Nurse is stronger than these killers. Other killers can win when they play well against a avarage SWF team, but nurse wins even if she plays avarage. Do you understand me? More precisely, "DO YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND"?

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,242

    Oh c'mon, man, is this where we're getting at?


    My original statement abridged:

    • Nurse is balanced very delicately (any small change would be drastic as she is now)
    • She is very punishing to play for the vast majority of players due to their skill level
    • The difference between skilled and unskilled nurse players is the most jarring in the game
    • Her kit completely circumvents conventional gameplay
    • She completely ignores many perks due to her exemption from contemporary play
    • She can be very discouraging to play before reaching a certain skill level
    • Playing as or against Nurse includes mind games but also has a lot of bling gambles and guessing games
    • Her primary balancing element is that her power demands perfect skill
    • She is fine where she is - she'd need a rework if we wanted to make her less risk/reward oriented


    I don't see where the straw-man is here, aside from the fact we just had this incredibly long and opinionated debate on if there is ever any 'guessing game' or random chance incorporated while playing against her, or if it's 100% psychological jousting at all levels.

    This entire time the philosophical spearhead of our discussion was 'Aren't all guessing games and 'blind gambles' just mind-games as well' meaning it has all shifted from the original intent of the threat into a subjective argument as to the definition of what a "Mind Game" is.

    Which more or less has devolved into such a guttural discussion of even if minute considerations can be considered 'trickery' by the simple reactionary nature of the game. Even in light of the fact that I never said that ALL plays against the nurse were gambles and that none were skillful.

    Which is a very bitter takeaway from the body of such a statement.


    We can argue all day and night as to what a "Mind Game" is with points on both sides. But regardless - the statement of the Nurse still stands.


    She's fine as is. She needs no changes.

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    The most logical thing is that Bhvr should remove all other maps, make a flat map, and there should be no pallet, no window, and no wall so that all the killers have a S tier. Cuz when the Nurse against to you, it's like you're playing on a flat land. Except for the rookie Nurses.

  • BrokenSouIBrokenSouI Member Posts: 6,639
    edited April 29

    Bruh. MAKE UP YOUR MIND


    In this VERY SAME THREAD.

    Youve said "she needs a rework !!" She "has no counterplay" And NOW you're saying "she's fine as is. She needs no changes" ? So which is it ?

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    Are you sure about that, rookie?

    I have many more ss like this, rookie ;)


  • BrokenSouIBrokenSouI Member Posts: 6,639

    Many more ? Thought you posted killer was impossible and you can barely manage a 1k ?

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,242

    Please actually read what I write before making such statements.


    My first comment - the one that started it all:


    "She does NOT need a nerf - what she needs is a rework.

    Right now, she teeters on a hyper fine edge.

    For 80% of players, Nurse is incredibly punishing and super hard to get used to. Her power is thorny and unwieldy in the hands of newer players and a new survivor player vs a new nurse will win just about every time.

    The disproportionate performance between the 'average' nurse player and the 'good' nurse player is staggering.

    When an average player gets behind her, she can be easily punished by survivors and her power can seem unreliable at times.

    But a good player can wipe the floor with survivors without breaking a sweat.

    Her kit completely circumvents many parts of normal gameplay, which not only makes her incredibly strong in her 1v1, but also chokes many of the potential perks at her disposal.

    There has never been an actual nurse player that ever thought 'Oh no! A pallet/window! My greatest weakness!'

    There has never been a nurse that has brought Spirit Fury or Bamboozle.

    There's no need.

    She feels rotten to play as until you finally 'git gud', then it's hard NOT to cut players down.

    Is there counterplay? Yes. But a lot of it involves stealth and breaking line of sight with complete gambles during mind-games.

    She's far, far, far from balanced. The only balancing element to her is how unforgiving and punitive her power can be when execution is imperfect.

    She's fine as-is where her numbers are concerned, but if we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and less of a face-stomp to play against, she needs a rework."


    I didn't think I'd have any real disagreements there, but sure enough.

    My second comment:


    "She's very fun to play when you're good at her.

    She's very unfun to play when you're not good at her.

    She's very fun to play against when the killer isn't all that good.

    She's very unfun to play against when the killer is skilled."


    Again, didn't think I was going to get a ton of hatred for this. I think we can all agree there's relatively little you can do against a highly skilled Nurse player.

    Then the argument became about PERSONAL ENJOYMENT.

    How we, as individuals PERSONALLY feel about playing as her and playing against her:

    Third comment, in reply to the protest from the audacious second post:


    "I really don't see how.

    It's binary.

    You lose line of sight, you run contrary to normal pathing.

    She blinks - you do your little spin or DH.

    She either hits you or she doesn't.

    Rinse and repeat for 7 minutes (Probably shorter, because if she's a good nurse, she's not going to miss much)

    I don't see how a killer pointing at you and damaging you regardless of sightlines, pallets, mindgames, spins, or perks is considered 'fun'."


    Because, while she does not need a nerf or even a rework - i do not find playing as or against her stimulating.

    That is my PERSONAL opinion.

    I don't think there's any argument that when you get into a 1v1 joust with a Nurse that it's anything more than "Try to bait her into missing her power or lunge"


    From there, it is no longer a conversation about the nurse. it devolves into what a 'Mind Game' is.

    Lengthy and long winded discussions on what defines a 'Mind-Game' and what's just spinning and hoping for the best. Where the difference between normal gameplay, random chance, guessing, and proper mind games are. Which, in all, has nothing to do with the Nurse.


    I never, at any point suggested that she was OP, that she was too strong or too weak - that she absolutely should be reworked - or that a rework is a good idea for where she is now. Moreover that if there's any changes to be made, she'd have to be reworked to bring her out of the unique and delicate balance that she's found herself in.

    The point of the original comment was not at all to suggest that she is languishing in need of a rework but that - if there's anything to be done, it would have to be a big one. She is not in a place where her numbers could be tweaked away - and no amount of changing her alpha numbers would make her any better to play as at low skill, or against at high skill. Saving a rework - she MUST be maintained.

    However, this was not what we discussed. We discussed the very nature of counter-play, mind-games, and the nature of psychology in relation to the reactionary relationship between players in an asymmetrical game.

    In my original, post I even declared that there is counter-play to the nurse. However, I was very firm to suggest that running in little circles or breaking line of sight is not 'counterplay' because it is not specific to the nurse and is generally wise advice. 'Breaking line of sight for nurse is no more counterplay than it is against any other killer.' was the heart of such points.


    I'd love to have a discussion about the implications of the Nurse's current balance and how it effects players of different skill levels - and what a potential rework would look like, if one should come to pass, and why it would be important not to rework her.

    However, here we stand discussing the definition of interpersonal gameplay mechanics.


    Never said that she was OP, never said that she was bad, never said that she was in a bad place for the game.

    Did say she was unfun, did say average players would benefit from a rework, did say that breaking line of sight was not 'countering' the Nurse.


    The confusion must stem from the opening statement and the conclusion:

    "She does NOT need a nerf - what she needs is a rework." Which could have been worded better, I did not mean to imply that she needs one by virtue - but that a rework alone would solve her 'problems' - which were defined in the statement and summarized in the conclusion:

    "She's FINE AS-IS where her numbers are concerned, but IF we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and LESS OF A FACE-STOMP to play against, she needs a rework."

    In this statement, the requirement for the rework would be 'IF' we want her to be more approachable for average players and less of a steam roller in the hands of high rank players. Which not everyone would agree with, hopefully.


    In light of the OP suggesting a nerf. The outline you should be taking away from the conclusion is "I understand where you are coming from. If it is a nerf you seek, instead seek a rework. But seek you need not."


    Please, my friend, read what I have said before pointing fingers.

    I absolutely could have worded my points better, and I would have been more than fine with clearing up confusion.

    I don't like writing poorly and miscommunicating my points. I'm more than fine if you disagree with me - but the important thing is that we are at least on the same page.

    I hope that in the future as we connect in the forums, we can try to offer constructive and direct counterpoints that are relevant. How this entire conversation was miscommunicated, derailed, and devolved into something so ugly is unbecoming.


    ~


    To clarify for the record:


    Does Nurse need a nerf?

    She's fine as-is. If we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and less of challenging to play against at high levels, she needs a rework instead and should never be nerfed in her current state.

    I do not enjoy playing as or against her regardless of performance, but this does not mean that she should be buffed, nerfed, reworked, or changed based on my opinions. I simply find her to lack any and all stimulation for what amounts to purely subjective means.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    To be honest, a lot of times I accidently hit the crouch button when throwing a pallet. I did change my keyboard setup to run E,S,D,F and my crouch is on A.

  • drsoontmdrsoontm Member Posts: 2,445
  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    Her primary balancing element is that her power demands perfect skill

    This isn't a balancing element. It just means it takes longer to learn her.

    The hard part of learning her is muscle memory, once you've developed the muscle memory to know her blink distances, you just decimate survivors unless it happens to be a really good SWF with comms.

    This is like saying a bicycle requires skill to use. Sure it's hard to learn, but once you learn it, you keep knowing it. It's not like you have to relearn the Nurse every time you play her.

  • SuzuKRSuzuKR Member Posts: 2,385

    So, do you have any meaningful proof to back up those claims yet? Cause she consistently averages out to a 2K in even matches. And no, self-reported aggregation of just a few thousand games is not meaningful proof.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,242

    AH - nono, II didn't mean that in order to use her one must be perfect.

    I meant to say that - if you use her power perfectly 100% of the time, you will always get a hit.

    It's not realistic, because you cannot always see where survivors are - or predict where they will be in a second, but that's the point.

    The killer requires muscle memory to learn, she needs the human element.

    Human elements are really good at guestemating, but not often good at making precise calculations quickly.

    If you hooked up some fictional computer to Nurse that perfectly understood the distance and traversal time of her power - and coded it to perfectly land on a survivor, she'd be stupefyingly powerful.

    If she was able to land her blink accurately 100% of the time, she'd be absolutely broken.


    What keeps her from being broken is the human element - that 'muscle memory' as you finely put it.


    Her power demands machine perfection from a person - and punishes mistakes. This is how she is balanced.

    Her primary balancing element is not that one must re-learn or anything, sorry if it sounded that way, the primary balancing element is that one must be perfect to excel at it, which means that most humans will struggle to accomplish such perfection.

    It is a clever way to balance something that no other killer can truly boast of.

  • SuzuKRSuzuKR Member Posts: 2,385

    If you play any killer perfectly 100% of the time, you will win. It means you outdid the survivors in every single thing. It’s kind of pointless to even say something like this.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,242

    There is no other killer power in the game that completely circumvents the conventions of distance, location, or terrain to effectuate a hit.

    You can play flawlessly with many killers and still not win, succeed, or simply snowball too late.

    Spirit's power - phase over to a survivor. You can get the hit, you may not, but you can still follow up on a mistake.

    Oni, miss a charge, try again - it took you time to cultivate your rage, now you have the time to use it.

    Cannibal, they can vault - huge margin of safety.


    In truth, no killer expects perfection with their power. Even Huntress can choose to chase down targets on foot when out of hatchets, and has a generally beefy hit box.


    Nurse is highly particular with her power, and is incredibly punishing to those who do not execute it near flawlessly. She cannot even chase survivors on foot if need be. She must use her power and use it correctly, or suffer the fatigue.


    i'm saying that her power is highly demanding of skill. I honestly didn't think anyone would suggest that she does NOT require more skill to play well - or that her power isn't as punitive as other killers'.

  • PlaysByShadyPlaysByShady Member Posts: 574

    Oh c'mon, man, is this where we're getting at?

    No, it's where you're stuck at.

    I don't see where the straw-man is here

    Then let me break it down, and be done with it.


    You said...

    A mind game is ... forcing a killer or survivor into making a play against their best interest.

    To which I said

    No, you're completely wrong here. A mind-game is where you force the opponent to have to choose correctly for success. It's not forcing a player to play against their interest.

    I further expanded on this saying

    when Nurse is holding her blink, she is definitely going to blink. She cannot cancel it, and the longer she holds it, the more problematic it can get. There is 100% a mind-game here because you can use your knowledge of Nurse's mechanics - that is assuming you have any - to force her into mistake.

    You didn't like this, and claimed..

    I have very clearly and deliberately outlined the differences between guessing and mind-games from an objective point of view.

    Except, you didn't.

    And, here come's the straw-man!

    But if anything that involves guesswork, anticipation, or uncertain prediction in this game is considered a 'mind-game', then literally every faculty within Dead By Daylight is.

    That's NOT what I said. I very clearly stated on each occasion that mind-games are where you're able to force your opponent to have to choose for success... will you vault, won't you vault, etc. The straw-man is you reducing this down to any choice, which isn't a mind-game. It's not a mind-game which gen you'll do first, etc.

    I further emphasised my point in stating:

    Fact is, you're saying that the Nurse having to guess which way a survivor is going to go, and having to make predictions, etc, is not a mind-game... when it literally involves having to make guesses based on cues the survivor is giving and completely in control of! Seems to me the very definition of a mind-game.

    If the survivor is giving cues to the Nurse that she has to read and react upon, then that's mind-gaming because it's completely in the survivor's hand to give false cues, etc.

    But again, you went and made a straw-man by repeating...

    if anything that involves guesswork, anticipation, or uncertain prediction in this game is considered a 'mind-game', then literally every faculty within Dead By Daylight is.

    And supplementing it with

    My friends, you're saying that the minute decision to walk in any particular direction at any time for any reason is a 'mind game' if it is at all influenced by knowledge of the opponent's actions;

    No, that's not what we said. That's a straw man you keep constructing, presumably because it's the only way you can satisfy your cognitive dissonance.

  • PlaysByShadyPlaysByShady Member Posts: 574
    edited April 29

    Prove it with the numbers then. Nurse has the lowest kill rate of all the killers. Where's your evidence for your claim?

    Your problem is, presumably you're only going against Nurse's that have put in the hours to compete with survivors at your level. You're not seeing all the Nurses that are crashing and burning at the lower levels where other killers can get success much more easily.

    You're literally only going against the battle-hardened Nurses, and presuming that they're the average... when in fact the average Nurse is being matched with opponents far lower than you because she's so difficult to play.

  • ExeleroExelero Member Posts: 22

    no you just bad

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    It's not difficult to play, it just takes time to learn. After I found out, all the killers are the same. But none of them can pass through pallets, walls, ceilings or objects like a Nurse. After learning to play, all the killers are the same. But none of them can pass through pallets, walls, ceilings or objects like a Nurse.

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,451

    Could we please see some of your Nurse gameplay? I want to learn how to get easy 4ks!

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    If you call me 'rookie', how about you play a custom game with me? I'm going to use Nurse, and if I get more than 2k, which is 2k too good because I'm a 'rookie', how about you stop crying more? Find 3 people like you who say that the Nurse is 'balanced' and let's play a custom game ourselves. You can also choose these people from the crew who constantly say that the Nurse barely got 2k. After all, she is a very 'balanced' character. Thanks to this, we can all see how many people even a 'rookie' can kill with such a 'balanced' character as Nurse.

  • q6iha34x1r69psli7pgq6iha34x1r69psli7pg Member Posts: 230

    Play nurse and get a 100 win streak if she is so easy

  • MrPuppierMrPuppier Member Posts: 27

    Ok, do you wanna play custom game with me? Also i didn't say ''She's so easy''. But she's best killer in the game. You're very smart (!). Proof it if i said. Btw not easy 100 win streak.

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,451

    Still waiting on your Nurse gameplay footage! Help me get ez wins!

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