If, as diversity, David King announces that he is homosexual, can we paradoxically take this to mean that all other characters for whom no mention is made of their sexual preference are heterosexual?
well, it's not like they're straight until proven otherwise.
No? Only David is confirmed to be gay and explicitly stated as such. All others even with heterosexual relationships mentioned in lore can still be anything. And.. David might even think he is gay at this point in his life but later realize he might not be gay but bi/pan/whatever.
the thing people often forget is that heterosexual people don’t ever really come out or explicitly state their sexuality. They don’t have struggles because of it and don’t usually have relationships/friends/families who react negatively towards them just because of their sexuality and thus it’s often not a major part of background stories other than mentioning their heterosexual relationship.
David is the only character with a confirmed sexuality, it doesn't mean everyone else is straight by "default".
However we do know some characters aren't gay/lesbians (but they could be bi/pan or whatever):
I'm probably forgetting people, also most licenced characters are in a m/f relationship in their original medias
I made a list in another thread, Dwight’s crush could however just be platonic and not romantic/sexual.
straight relationships are actually mentioned way more often than people give it credit for:
Nurse and her husband
Frank and Julie in their tome lore (which was on the edge of being disgusting and definitely being shoved down our throats)
David having had a girlfriend (turns out he is not straight, but that was still a heterosexual relationship in the lore)
Felix and his pregnant wife
Oni is the direct ancestor of Spirit thus implied to have had a wife
Dwight having a crush on a female coworker (though admittedly this one is pretty low on the list)
Ace referred to as womanizer no some cosmetics
Wraith and Nurse having (romantically) implied cosmetics/texts
other characters in lore:
multiple parents explicitly stated as father and mother (Jake, David, Spirit, Trapper (not sure about his mother mentioned), Hillbilly, Meg (pretty sure her father is mentioned), for others I guess it’s mostly one parent mentioned and thus not explicitly heterosexual)
Pretty sure other relationships in tome/background stories (shout out to the one gay relationship in one of Haddies story’s i think - which didn’t get any further announcement by BHVR)
love that list lol, going to shove it down the throat of the "im not homophobic but sexuality doesn't matter or belong in a horror game, gay or straight" people who suprisingly don't care as long as the relationships are heteronormative.
In truth - nobody should care.
We should be at a point where LGBT+ inclusion isn't a big deal to anyone, it's just a normal part of life.
If we're rolling out the confetti and giant pressers with community wide fanfare for each and every survivor's inexplicable announcement - as if it's Rowling's Twitter feed... that may become a problem.
But, ultimately, none of it really matters.
Make the characters interesting. That's all that's important. If people want to be mithered by it, that's their own business.
I have heard several people's opinions.
In fact, you can find out in the character descriptions and archives that characters other than David are either homosexual or heterosexual.
What I found disturbing was the loud and high-handed announcement that "this character is actually homosexual" while making a dedicated news story. Unlike the other characters.
Of course I understand that this archive will talk about David King's character background. But the difference is that the news article was purposely created solely for this character's sexual preference.
I see this as having been unnecessary.
Diversity means a society where all kinds of ideas, tastes, etc. are universally accepted without saying a word.
Yet, David King was created for a separate news article.
“He is gay.”
It seems to me that they really wanted to make the appeal, "We at BHVR are a socially and not racially discriminatory company” that created a gay character.
Diversity is defined differently in the minds of many in my experience in life, especially in the context of inclusion. Often times people are excluded and seen differently because who they are doesn't conform to someone elses idea of a diverse society which defeats the whole point of diversity. You're absolutely right on what diversity means. We should all live and let live and any desire to have others see things the way you do should always be done in peace.
That announcement was mostly a follow up to the announcement almost two years ago and the collaboration with GaymerX. For the sexuality/sexual/romantic relationship of other characters already present (which are all heterosexual), an announcement wasn’t needed because they were never excluded from the game beforehand and people don’t start to search for whatever the devs did wrong when those were added.
even if there wasn’t an announcement (which was just a tweet among hundreds and one blog entry that you can just ignore) people would still have complained about this inclusion. Eg „they tried to make it as silent as possible because they don’t actually care and just threw it in to appease the woke community“. It was a lose-lose situation really.
The fact is, you can't please everyone. And you shouldn't try to.
As you wrote, if they had kept completely silent, the woke community would be pissed off. And I'm sure you, or anyone in general, realised how much trouble it caused - at least a hint of it - to announce it like that. At least I just brazenly assume that. I just listened in the silence and secrecy of the fog. Even people of the same sexuality or identity puke on each other. It's not funny. It's nice that it has at least died down. Well, I suppose it has.
Nobody may have asked, but they shouldn't have wasted time working on something like that. Because, as you said, it's not a win-win situation. Maybe you get more players in the lobby for a limited time, some of whom are really quite weird, but that's it. At least that's my experience.
If the characters had simply remained ambivalent, everyone would have thought their piece. Then there are people who take the character and skin descriptions or lore as an indication of a certain sexuality and talk about it as if there were nothing more important, and others who are not interested, who read the stories because they show the character in action - if they even do read the lore. This does not require the disclosure of sexuality.
I am sure people would react differently if it were about a real person. It's not, but I wanted to put it out there.
If the characters had simply remained ambivalent, everyone would have thought their piece.
ambivalence wasn’t really a thing even though they said it was their intention. There have been several explicit heterosexual relationships been in the lore of some characters and as you can already derive from all the feedback, just having girlfriend mentioned in one single sentence it was assumed David was straight. Keep in mind even if David was revealed to be gay in his tome story there is still the possibility he isn’t ‚just‘ gay, sexualities aren’t set in stone, people can figure out additional aspects of their sexualities later in their lives even if they think they have figured themselves out already. David might be bi, or pan, or gay, or maybe even straight but he actually is one of those people that had a ‚gay phase‘ (Even though that is something they really shouldn’t write about in their lore). head canons can still be whatever, nothing changed in that regard nor will it ever. With David’s reveal we are now just at the start of equal treatment. Future LGBTQ+ additions/reveals will (hopefully) not be announced like David.
I apologise in advance if my answer is confused or does not make sense. I tried my best but sleeping pills, tranquillisers, antipsychotics and more are ######### with my head right now, on top of a cold turkey alcohol withdrawal and a few rather uncomfortable encounters. But enough about my private life. Just take note of that and take into account that I'm just not up to it right now. I still wanted to answer. There is never a perfect moment. And I'm not going to wait for a better opportunity.
I see what you mean. Nevertheless, precisely because many homosexuals first had to find out that they don't particularly like opposite-sex relationships - in a good or rather bad way - one should not assume that just because David had a girlfriend that this necessarily means he must be heterosexual. I definitely perceived this as an attempt at amibalence as some questions were kept unanswered and not as an exclusion. And if it had been an exclusion, it would have affected me just as much. Not that I'd mither about such things too much, but yeah. After all, it doesn't say in the lore that it was a good, happy and healthy relationship. Neither that, nor why it really ended.
Some people are kind of petty about stuff like that, I get a fit of aggression and would love to be another problem in their lives. One with consistency. I don't want to come across as a ruffian, but I can only shake my head and I just had to get that off my chest. People who suddenly stand in the corner in a huff because of such trifles... It really could have been worse. It's just a relationship. How many relationships does it take to be truly happy and know who you want by your side for life? ....
I hope BHVR will recognise this opportunity and take it. After all, they have even created the space to do so. One of his cosemetics says that he is not very mature in terms of relationships and such. For me, this means that he still has some experiences to make before he really knows what he truly wants and how to be in a relationship. At least that's how I understood it. However, I must admit that my interpretation skills are not the best anymore.
I definitely agree with you that they shouldn't close it as a phase. Otherwise the tables will turn. Then possibly those who were annoyed by the "gayvid (is ours - forever - mfs stfu and do one)" scream grouping will go after them with malicious intent.... Twitter, Youtube, reddit, etc. Some stuff happened in real life very close to where I live. It's madness. People just don't make sense. It's a fitctional character of a game....
I only really thought about the headcanons for the first few hours after the announcement. If someone feels offended by my or other authors works, he or she should just not read them - that' s it! Problem solved! The problem I encounter again and again, however, is people who care a lot about the canon. If it doesn't match the canon, it's not good enough. I already ignore these people, but I'm quite a hothead and easily irritated if people get on my nerves often enough. Sometimes I just wish there was a finger-break button next to the Upvote or Like functions.😂
While I'm not entirely sure what this kind of equality is supposed to do in a game like Dead By Daylight, as long as they don't overdo it or write it too out of character, I'm fine with it. I have to admit, though, that the new lore has left me with a slightly queasy stomach. Haven't had a chance to read it all yet though (I got to the part where he was beaten up by his "fan"s group), so I won't judge. It's not badly written, but still kind of unpleasant to read. That's all I'll say about that.
They should not have announced anything concrete at all. My suggestion, which is a bit late now, would have been that they release new lore for different characters in which this theme creeps in (and doesn't become a coming out lore like some people believe David's new lore is rn.....) and only when enough lore has been written could they officially announce that LGBTQ+ people are "hiding" among the original characters and players can find them if they do archive tasks. Of course, that would have taken more time and wouldn't have dealt with the paywall issue very elegantly, unless they had a new free character in mind that wasn't designed exclusively for that issue. And another problem would be that too many characters at once should not "get it" either. That would come across just as badly as some found this announcement. My idea is certainly not ideal, but on the one hand it would have made players aware of the fact that this topic also occurs among the new lore entries, for free as well as DLC characters, there would then also not only be one character that would be specially highlighted for this and you could make a kind of game in the game out of it. But that was just a spontaneous thought on my part.
Btw Mooks, how did you do the single line quote? Haven't found this out and it could make my answer more readable if I can quote to the parts of your reply to whom I was refering in my answer. It could serve that way in general. Thanks in advance if you can give me any tips. And for the fact that you will probably read this.
First of all I pretty much agree with you on almost everything about inclusion/representation you wrote here. Especially that announcement of David being gay I personally didn’t find needed - but I do understand to some degree why they did it this way.
I tried my best but sleeping pills, tranquillisers, antipsychotics and more are ######### with my head right now, on top of a cold turkey alcohol withdrawal and a few rather uncomfortable encounters. But enough about my private life
oh well. Wishing you the best with whatever you are going through and hope everything turns out fine in the end!
i am on mobile so maybe on desktop it’s a little bit different.
you have in the message box 4 symbols for attachements, links etc. One of those symbols looks like a mirrored „lP“ and if you highlight parts of your written message and then click on that symbol you have different options to edit your text (the „ symbol is for the quotes; those are only applied to a full paragraph and not for single words/sentences). The text I marked as quoted I had copy/pasted manually from your post.
It is, indeed. I was looking for the symbol at the bottom of the input field, but it was on the left side all the time. Exactly where I could not have seen it according to my current state, wonderful... But now it has been cleared up. Thanks anyway. I would probably never have identified the symbol as what it actually is, if I had even consciously seen it on my own.
If I can say one thing, it would be a miracle if it really turned out even only sound in the end. But I've to expect that it gets screwed up like vomit in a bucket full of thioacetone, wheverever it comes from, after ten pints of expired donkey piss that has been standing open for years. I practically provoked it, even though I didn't give a bloody sh*t at the time. Would be chuffed if karma wouldn't be a mingebag. Well, I hope your wish comes true. I have absolutely no interest in any more Mr Robot kind of drama. Oops, my bad habit again. I really should control myself and get less upset while writing.
I sometimes wish I had at least that idea. Maybe then I would be less negative/critical/whatever about it. Do you mind sharing a little bit?
you mean sharing, why I think they made this extra announcement?
well. First of all, it’s their first revealed LGBTQ+ character in the game since the start in 2016, for the longest time they have stated they didn’t want to reveal sexual orientations and the likes. Though they didn’t hold true to that as they have at least mentioned heterosexual relationships of various natures multiple times since Nurses introduction thus they kinda excluding LGBTQ+ content and treating it differently to heterosexual content. Then almost two years ago they made an announcement that they have reviewed their stand on this as they have seen and regret their mistake here. After that they have announced they are collaborating with GaymerX to make sure their first representation won’t be a stereotypical or bad representation and they don’t make unintentional mistakes of any sorts.
Now i see their reveal as a follow up to these announcements and as a way to showcase the results of their collaboration. Also it’s the best way to even acknowledge that they worked with GaymerX on this, otherwise they couldn’t really acknowledge or appreciate their collaboration!
Exactly, because somehow I understood parts of it, but I don't really see it as coherent.
well. First of all, it’s their first revealed LGBTQ+ character in the game since the start in 2016
It is, however, even if many would have expected something completely different. However, it still wouldn't have needed this sweeping speech, would it?
for the longest time they have stated they didn’t want to reveal sexual orientations and the likes. Though they didn’t hold true to that as they have at least mentioned heterosexual relationships of various natures multiple times since Nurses introduction thus they kinda excluding LGBTQ+ content and treating it differently to heterosexual content.
Is it wrong to note at this point that they have not really revealed any sexual orientation? I mean, apart from existing spouses and relationships that used to exist, but that doesn't really mean anything.
That was one of the parts of the discussion that I couldn't really understand. They've only really announced and confirmed David, and no one knows if they're not going to develop into a different sexuality.
Whereas I can understand that it is a bit, let's say unfair, that there were no same-sex relationships or polyamorous relationships with both sexes in all this time.
So yes, they haven't fully complied.
Then almost two years ago they made an announcement that they have reviewed their stand on this as they have seen and regret their mistake here.
I can understand that. Especially when there was a lot of whining about it in the meantime. It must have been annoying. I mean, that's what someone says who belongs somewhere in this matter, but who is relatively indifferent to it. So, I don't know how people felt about it, I just thought it was over the top. But of course, they didn't adhere to what they stated before one hundred per cent and expressed remorse for it and said that they were doing something about it so that there would be equality again.
After that they have announced they are collaborating with GaymerX to make sure their first representation won’t be a stereotypical or bad representation and they don’t make unintentional mistakes of any sorts.
For example, I only found out about it after it was announced and was a bit sceptical because I hadn't heard many good things about this organisation. My first thought at the time was that they could have sought the opinions and experiences of the community independently of an official organisation. But that would probably have been too much effort, in retrospect. I mean, you would have to rummage around in LGBTQ+ forums and statistically analyse what the whole crowd would have said there. I wouldn't have relied on the opinion of self-proclaimed experts, but well, what I've heard clearly plays into it.
In that context, though, I can understand it. If they themselves have no one who can offer them experience in the field, or only insufficient experience, then it is clear that they turn to someone or, in that sense, to an organisation that has experience in this.
Makes more sense to me now. If they had just published something, the organisation would have disappeared and one could have wondered where the collaboration was.
I have to admit at this point that I only ever heard bits and pieces of it and was therefore always a bit confused and didn't understand it and therefore always assumed that it wasn't quite what it was supposed to be. Reading it again summarised in this way has definitely helped me in my understanding of the matter and in forming my opinion. I think I should stop questioning my opinion towards Behaviour, only that of people who have shown their excessive joy about this announcement in inappropriate ways. Many thanks for that.
it’s not wrong but on the other hand, it’s kinda never expected for heterosexuality to be revealed. I mean, have you ever heard of someone coming out as straight? And even then, it’s not really set in stone, David might still later on in his life discover more aspects of himself and his sexuality. Him being gay was a significant part of his story, he isn’t bi, he had to pretend to like women.
Also, your criticism of the announcement is still valid, i wasn’t trying to completely invalidate it or say you are wrong. I just tried to find reasonable arguments for their approach but as I have said I am not 100 percent behind it either.
it’s not wrong but on the other hand, it’s kinda never expected for heterosexuality to be revealed. I mean, have you ever heard of someone coming out as straight?
It may not be an everyday situation, but I certainly have. In the course of a few people's self-discovery, I witnessed how one or the other had to question everything completely individually to find out that it was heterosexuality after all, or something they actually already knew beforehand. And I think the people I met there are not the only ones. It would be funny if I had just caught those among the world's population. How likely is that? xD Although one of them actually didn't notice it in a phase of self-discovery, but simply had a "gay phase". If I don't count him, there are still quite a few of the thousands of people with whom I have already had personal contact. With too well-known personalities, however, I have to keep quiet about it. I would never have actively noticed that someone had to come out as not gay.
And even then, it’s not really set in stone, David might still later on in his life discover more aspects of himself and his sexuality. Him being gay was a significant part of his story, he isn’t bi, he had to pretend to like women.
This is definitely a part I would only accept with a raised eyebrow. He wasn't gay before, he became gay through the developments that Behaviour and GaymerX chose for him so that Behaviour could iron out something that a few people were upset about. (Side note: Of course you don't become gay, you find out. With fictional characters it's the same in their minds, though if it's on the outside looking in in some minds, including mine, it doesn't count if they haven't given any hints of it beforehand. Then anyone could claim anything. My conflict with the situation is that you can definitely tell when you're adjusting a character overnight based on some lengthy round of discussion in one direction or another.).
I really wonder where he is supposed to have really actively pretended to like women when he shouldn't based on the announcement. The scene where he's drunk off his ass bragging about Jasmine might as well just be dismissed as if she wasn't his in character. After all, we just learn that she's good looking, and that's what he seems to repeat over and over again. That she is good looking and has just looked at him instead of any other guy. I read somewhere that he is reasonably smart. He should come up with something better and more credible than just raving about it, should he really try to deceive others here. Even when he's totally drunk, he can do it, I bet.
I'll definitely read the rest of the lore, maybe I'll understand you then, but what I had read so far doesn't really convince me at the moment.
I also made extra screenshots of the lore so that I can read it without starting the game. I'll read the rest and maybe change my mind, who knows.
Don't worry, I didn't interpret it as such an attempt. I simply wrote what was on my mind and I'm happy every time I read a totally normal, different opinion.
I may have already mentioned it somewhere, but on other platforms, every now and then people with different opinions than those who agree unconditionally or don't even question are directly insulted, blocked and reported. Here it's peaceful ground - apart from the perpetual "war" between "The survivors are just crying and are the toxic ones" and "The killers are camping and then wonder why they get butt dances?!" groups.
I don't accuse anyone of anything unless they give me a good reason to do so. :D