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Shattered Hope isn't the way to address issues with boons



  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    So do I give up my slow down Perk and lose three gens before my first hook? Or do I give up my chase Perk and lose three gens before my first hook? Or do I give up my info Perk and lose two gens before I even find someone and then another gen before I find the second person? Or do I give up my regression Perk and not be able to actually defend my gens at all because baseline regression is a not funny joke? Keep in mind that I'm playing Trapper or Shape or Plague or Twins of any other Killer that doesn't have good mobility about the map as part of their base kit.

    I play about the opposite of what you are playing 80% survivor / 20% Killer. I use to play 100% Killer, no survivor. My main killers are Trapper, Plague, Twins, Sadako, Freddy and Billy.

    I think what I would say, is that everything is a trade off in DBD. You now have the ability to permanent get rid of Boon totems if you feel it's necessary.

    For you, it sounds like it's less important than gen slow down, chase perks and info perks. So it's not a primary concern. And remember, you can still snuff them. If CoH is less important than info perks, then I would say it's in a good place.

  • wisdomwielderwisdomwielder Member Posts: 327

    Absolutely agree. This is just a dumb bandaid fix and should not make it into the game. Instead, I want the option to either snuff the boon OR break the totem. I shouldn't have to bring a perk to counter something survivors MIGHT bring. It's a stupid, poorly thought out decision that will add YET ANOTHER garbage perk to my blood web.


  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 638

    Nobody is going to use this perk at high MMR. This is a bandaid. Instead of fixing "terrain stacking" you gave us Bamboozle. While that perk is nice it's not fun to need that perk against certain RNG on some of the DBD maps.

    You can't play killer and expect to bring perks to cover all the bandaid fixes.

  • RezblazeRezblaze Member Posts: 843
    edited May 18

    BHVR said they wanted to give players a choice.

    But if they wanted to really make it a choice, why did they make it a perk? Why do I have to force my build to mold around this one mediocre perk if I want to break Boons?

    Why didn't they make it an input command? Press Space to snuff, Hold Space to break. Really simple and gives Killers an option.

    Making it a perk, you either don't take it and they have boons, or you do take it and they bring no boons. In both these situations, you're punished before the match even begins, essentially because you guessed wrong. And no perk should do that.

    This perk already has a poor shelf life because it dies as soon as the Boon Totem meta shifts (assuming its even Meta anymore, I've seen it less and less in my matches) and now I just have another useless perk that I'm forced to sift through on my Bloodweb.

  • dictepdictep Member Posts: 1,146

    i dont know why devs give something for killers. They complaint 24/7 and always wanted more and more and more

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,698

    The choice isn't "snuff or break", the choice is "engage with the point of boons or don't".

    Which is why this shouldn't be basekit. Boons have a mechanical point, remember, and while they're struggling to fill that role right now, that doesn't mean they should be abandoned and made into discount hexes.

    That being said, I do think this perk needs some kind of backup effect for if there aren't any boons in the trial. Not sure what, but the effect it currently has really isn't enough for a perk on its own imo.

  • RezblazeRezblaze Member Posts: 843

    I shouldn't have to say that the less perks and designs in the game that RELY on the other side bringing a very specific perk or character, the better.

    Remember the frustrations you have when you bring a healing build as a Survivor against a Plague? This reflects that same thing. The Plague is poorly designed in that aspect. She's a fun killer, but its unmistakable that she simply bypasses any healing whatsoever and completely nullifying someone's build or focus before a match even starts is always bad and feels bad.

    What mechanics does Boons provide that is worth it enough to require tying this ability to a perk rather than an input? This isn't a fun back-and-forth. People find Boon totems inconvenient and obnoxious, and it wastes killer time when they are on already constant time pressure. Now, in order for anyone to want to punish Boons for misplacement, they have to run this perk and hope they even bring a Boon, and hope they find one in a match.

    It isn't a good perk and the mechanics isn't adding anything to the game in a way that people enjoy. Just let every killer have a choice to break Boons, and get this useless perk out of my Bloodweb.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,698

    As stated, I agree that this perk relying on boon totems for any value whatsoever isn't good, and should be changed.

    Moving on, the intent of boons is good enough in theory that it's worth attempting to fix, and it's hardly an insurmountable task. One of the things you mention - the constant time pressure - should, ideally, be pretty severely lessened by the meta shakeup that they have in mind. I'm no psychic, but the combination of acknowledging that the killer meta is primarily slowdown perks and repeated reassurances that they do understand why certain perks are meta and aren't just going to nerf things blindly indicates to me that the killer role can expect, at least in theory, to have much less of a hard time pressure breathing down their neck in most trials.

    And again, breaking boons as a basekit measure completely annihilates their point, as well as making all boons except CoH completely worthless to bother bringing because you can't guarantee any value from them. The perks, CoH excluded, are designed around the killer being near them to function at full capacity, so making them that flimsy is a bad idea.

    So that's two reasons not to make breaking boons basekit, and no reasons in favour. Seems like making it a perk is actually a better idea than making it basekit, huh?

    Of course, the best idea is just not to bother. This perk doesn't need to exist because its functionality is fundamentally unnecessary. But, if it's going to exist, I'll definitely reiterate that it needs a secondary effect.

  • Dream_WhisperDream_Whisper Member Posts: 235

    Exactly, My problem with COH; is two parts that make it overwhelming strong together.

    The first is the Self Care aspect, the fact that it has no big downside besides finding a totem and blessing it. Normal Self-Care has a Debuff when it comes to free heals without a medkit by 50% or 32 Seconds or even 48 Seconds with effected by Mangled. CoH has no debuff to normal Self-Care; and it is boosted by 50% now. Especially when you carry a medkit and so on. Not just for you, but your teammates as well; even after death. Dedicated 5th perk slot for your team; when it comes to healing and being efficient with it. Why would you ever run Self Care or any other self healing Perk like Inner Healing for like 5 times; when you can easily relie on CoH to do it for you and your teammates; more then 30 times a match; in like 8 seconds or less with medkits and stacking healing buffs like botany knowledge.

    This very powerful benefit leads to another problem; when it comes to killer's efficiency to slowing down the game and be more likely to be forced to camp and tunnel more often then not; because.... the ability to self care for you means your teammates can literally ignore cooperation together and stay on gens; hencing Gen Speeds. Even if the killer decides to ignore you to prioritize gens defense over tunnelling; they are lose lose situations as hit and run tactics are not effective enough, because... the teammates can literally go find the Boon and heal up like it nothing. The Killer could waste massive time looking for it, and snuff it; but the booner can keep on Booning new totem spawns and keep the pressure going. One Survivor can easily carry the entire Team from going down so easily easy, not dying like cockroaches, and ensure they all can teabag at the exit gates.

    My Proposal changes to make CoH be a "Reverse Empathy", with the 100 healing boost without self care option. Will ensure that no longer can one teammate can just go sit in thw corner and self care quick; while their teammates repair gens. But instead, this change will make it so that they need their teammates to come to their boon and let them heal them; to heal quickly. This perk will definitely be more strong for SWF or experienced Survivors whom knows how to cooperate; not so much for Newbie Survivors whom do not know how Boon works or play immersive and ditch their teammates for their own survival. It also very beneficial for the killer too, as it ensure them; that there is one less Survivor of the Generators too.

    If a Survivor wants to heal themselves by themselves efficiency, Self Care, Inner Healing, or bring a Medkit will be the way to go; but if they want to work with teammates, they should try out WGLF, We Will Make It, or even my new Boon CoH Rework.

  • Marc_123Marc_123 Member Posts: 2,371

    Maybe not the way but a way.

    I can imagine that as this perk exists and is propbably used often at the beginning survs will start to use Boons less because they fear it.

    This may be enough to reduce the overall appearance of boons.

    It is a little bit like you always assume Dead Hard, BT or DS even if they don´t use it.

  • LaluziLaluzi Member Posts: 4,327

    Nah, I don't think it is. 1 killer perk is worth 4 survivor perks, theoretically.

    But that math isn't really the problem here. My problem is with how Shattered Hope works as a counter-perk. I can look at a survivor lobby with 4 flashlights and equip Lightborn - a perk which would be useless and unnecessary in most games, but which I may well need in this case. I can see four medkits and equip Franklins - which, again, does nothing for me if survivors don't have items or already use their items by the time they reach me. I can't look at a lobby and tell there's a player with CoH/Shadow Step/Exponential and an RPD offering.

    Because I'd run Shattered Hope for that game, and I'd give up another perk in a heartbeat, but I can't afford to run it every game any more than I can afford to dedicate a perk slot to Lightborn. Because in most games, I'd be playing with three perks.

    Shattered Hope isn't a counter to boons in and of themselves; it's a counter to specific boon spots that are abnormally unwieldy for the killer to access and/or affect a disproportionate area of the map. This is why I wanted that problem addressed outside of a perk - because a perk that just counters a lose-lose situation that's essentially random (from the killer's end) and not especially common is not remotely worth running unless it does something more than just countering a perk and a map that may or may not be in play.

    Shattered Hope could work as an augment to Plaything/Pentimento, which is already hella niche. Other than that, bringing it over a half-decent perk is a horrible idea. You may as well always run Mad Grit in case you run into a sabo squad.

  • EonEon Member Posts: 31

    Shattering Hope should just give the ability to break any totem, less the hexed ones, so you dont really know where the totems are and just activate pentimento, OR make it base kit and let as break the boons, no more no less.

  • Liam282Liam282 Member Posts: 134

    As many i'm sure have said: "Should be base kit."

  • ViskodViskod Member Posts: 828

    I don't think it should be base kit. I'd rather have survivors repeatedly waste time blessing a totem I can snuff instantly.

  • vladspellbindervladspellbinder Member Posts: 273

    The part of the game I enjoy most is the chase, with mind games. I don't really care for the hide and seek part where I have to FIND a Survivor so I can CHASE the Survivor, so, yes, my info Perk(s) (are) is very key to my play style. Lethal Pursuer has a permeant spot in my line up because it gets me into that first chase so much faster. I don't have it on all Killers yet because I'm trying to Prestige 3 everyone because I'm a completist, as such there have been tons of games where I don't run it and I loose three gens before my first chase because I went right when I should have gone left at the start of the trail and found no one because all four Survivor spawned together or near each other and there was NO ONE in the three quarters of the map I could check in the ninety seconds it takes to find and do a gen. Even with Lethal Pursuer I sometimes fail to find someone and that's never fun.

    Barbeque & Chilli is another must have for me, mostly because The Grind (tm) is very real (see above about P3ing everyone) and doubling my BP every match really helps. I DO use the aura reading most games to tell me where to go next after a hook because I'm not a camper. Even if I don't see anyone I can go to the nearest gen and start my patrol again but seeing one or two people in the distance gives me a direction to head to get to the part of the game I find fun faster.

    Then I need some sort of slowdown or regression so that I can chase more people before the end of the game. Matches without one or the other tend to go by really fast and I get two MAYBE three fun chases in before the gens are done and the gates opened. But that really depends on the Killer I am playing. My Leatherface games tend to be a bit on the long side even if I don't run slowdowns even though I tend to run Speed Limiter so I still have to have two chases instead of just the one but Leatherface is one of the Killer I am most skilled on and even with the Speed Limiter he's good for getting pallets to drop instead of just looping around them nine times. My others Killers NEED to slow things down for me to have any chance of getting a 4k because I'm a Twelve Hook Gamer and I don't camp or tunnel hook people. I will tunnel DOWN people at times to slow the game down more but I don't backer-backer HOOK people.

    Really I could give up a chase Perk, but that's mostly because I don't use them all that often and instead double up on my slow down or regression. Even so I'm not going to run Shattered Hope because it doesn't help me with my problem with CoH. If I'm in the middle of my three-gen and the Boon is aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way on the other side of the map being able to break it doesn't do me any good.

    My problem is that the devs give us a Perk so we "have the choice" on if we want to play tug of war with Boon but straight up ignore that a Killer Perk has to be around four times as powerful as a Survivor Perk to be viable. Getting shown the aura of anyone in range of the Boon isn't enough to make it worth running, because there is a good chance no one will be there when your Terror Radius shows up so it'll just be another Perk that only the strongest Killers with good mobility or stealth can really make use of and be near or actually worthless for everyone else.

    It's just another Call of Brine insult, putting in a Perk to change something that should be fixed in base kit and because there is a Perk for it now the base kit change will never actually happen because the devs "fixed that already".

    I don't even really WANT to be able to break the bones, I just want me snuffing out a Boon to ACTUALLY MATTER in some way. Even something as simple as putting the Boon(s) on a cooldown for sixty seconds would help, so they can't just slap it down again right away. And having that as a base kit mechanic would make relocating your Boon an actual tactical choice for the Survivor. Move it before it gets snuffed and it doesn't go on cooldown or finding a new place the Killer might not know about so they don't find it as quickly.

    The reason I'm so upset over Shattered Hope is it's just another example of the devs not admitting they made a mistake and giving the players a "fix" that doesn't address the core issue of what was actually being complained about.

  • PyrosorcPyrosorc Member Posts: 94

    No, my math is correct. Your one perk is directly countering two survivor perks. Your one perk should be countering FOUR survivor perks to get even value, because survivors get 4x more perks than you.

  • PyrosorcPyrosorc Member Posts: 94

    Your arguement does nothing but prove how overpowered CoH (not boons in general) are. CoH is so game-warping that it is worth running Shattered Hope, even though taking it immediately means that the survivors are out-valuing you on perk count. for the reasons in my post above - survivors get 4x more perks than killer, so a killer perk should be 4x more value.

  • ViskodViskod Member Posts: 828

    Thinking that a Perk like Shattered Hope directly counters however many Perk slots are wasted on Boons is one thing, but trying to think of it like "one killer perk has to counter 4 survivor perks because altogether they get 16 perks" is just, well, stupid. That's a nonsensical way to think about things.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 458
    edited May 19

    Exactly. This is what devs do. Any problem with game? Slap a perk or killer on it. This really is not the way to adress the issue. Let's say there are 5 problems in game. Am I now supposed to run 5 non meta perks and get genrushed for free?

    Solution to boon perks is very easy: Make ammounts of blessing limited. By default it's 1+amount of boon perks a survivor has. So if they only have one boon perk, they can bless a totem two times. After it's snuffed out for the second the perk is gone. Boom, literally every problem is gone with this solution. Someone commited the whole build to boons? No problem, you have 5 uses.

    It's both lore and gameplay friendly as witches always need some kind of materials to cast their spells. They simply run out of them.

    As long hex perks are one time use, there is no good explanation for survivor boons to be infite time use (1 of 16 perks survivors bring benefiting the whole team is bs... not to mention every boon effect is ridiculously strong atm).

    I really am not surprised that people are not playing killer, especially with hit validation still being a thing (yes, it is still a thing).

    @Munqaxus Slapping a perk on an obvious balance issue is NOT a solution. Calling the idea genius is literally insulting.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,698

    I'm not sure how that solution fixes any of the problems with boons, though?

    So, let's take a look at what those problems are- there are some spots where it simply isn't worth it to snuff a boon because it's obnoxious, the way the radius works makes it very easy to cover a huge part of the map, and CoH specifically isn't designed well and causes some pretty serious problems because of it. Beyond putting a hard limit on how many times you have to deal with those problems, how does a limited amount of blessings actually fix anything? It doesn't stop those problems from existing, it doesn't stop boons from being annoying, so it doesn't seem like much of a fix to me.

    It only fixes the problem if you (incorrectly) assume that the problem is them being infinite. Not only is that not the case, but there are actual problems that could be fixed.

    Shattered Hope doesn't fix them either, mind, but there are still some uses for it if people are bringing boons, so it's not the worst idea the devs have ever had.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 458
    edited May 19

    @jesterkind If boons are not infinite, snuffing out totem removes this stack from game for good. If survivor only has one or two boon perks, it's one of his two/three uses of boons this trial. While RPD is it's own issue (srsly devs, you showed yet another level of lack of understanding your own game with removal of this hook), kicking a boon is now worth most of the times, because they will simply run out of them. And you don't have to waste 25% of your perk slots for this.

    Edit: Literally all problems come from the fact, that boons are infinite. Give me any problem and I will explain to you how making them limited in use fixes it IMMEDIATELY.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,698

    If boons aren't infinite, and your only method of handling the problems I outlined is to snuff them multiple times, they actually become the killer side objective everyone acts like they currently are. On top of that, their intended function is completely tossed aside, and the three that aren't CoH become basically not worth bringing because they're the ones designed around the actual point of boons.

    A better solution would be to actually fix those problems? Change totem spawns to better account for boons being in the game, maybe tweak how the radius works a little if it's still necessary, and slightly redesign CoH. That way the problems will actually be fixed and boons can be the fun, interesting mechanic they clearly have the potential to be.

    Boons are not hexes. They're meant to be replaceable.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 458

    @jesterkind You didn't talk about any boon problem in the whole post.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 458

    Also the Shattered Hope itself is poorly designed. It won't show aura when snuffing out ShadowStep (The most underrated one for some reason) and it is litreally useless perk when there is no boon totem. If it's effects were super strong, this limitation could have place in game... but it simply does nothing when survivors don't boon. In 4 vs 16 perk scenario such design is unacceptable.

    How to fix it: Killer can break any totem they wish while running this perk. Now this leads to some potentially scary combos. It would probably not work on Haunted Grounds or Retribution due to wording, but you still can prevent booning before it happens or apply Pentimento yourself.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,698

    Yes I did? I outlined three problems in my initial response to you: Totem spots that take enough time to get to that snuffing them is never worth it, the radius easily covering huge sections of the map in some common scenarios, and CoH itself being badly designed.

    Those, alongside the audio cue on the killer side being a little too quiet/close to the totem in my opinion, are the actual problems with boons. Add on to that the goal they're intended to achieve, continual slowdown in exchange for survivor buffs, and making them limited use is a bandaid solution that only limits how often you have to deal with them, it doesn't change what actually makes them annoying.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 458
    edited May 19

    @jesterkind If boon is of limited use, sooner or later survivors will run out of them (unless it's Earie of Crows with whole team having full boon builds I guess). It's only not worth to snuff them, cause they can be immediately reapplied, often right next to the killer. Survivors won't do this if they know they will waste the stack when killer is so close. RPD and EoC are simply badly designed maps which do need changes anyway.

    Range: I actually disagree with it being too big (as much as I hate the boons). They are ridiculously easy to find as well. With them being actual risk perks, I don't see a reason to change it.

    The very thing with limited use is not bandaid, because if survivor knows it can be snuffed out immediately and they can run out of stacks (again, if it's just one boon perk it's only 2 uses) they won't be blessing willy-nilly and actually waiting for killer to be far away, looking for actually hidden totems. This is the very thing that makes them annoying - that killers know, they will be back 20 seconds after he snuffs them out. If you kick totem two times and survivor does not have perk slot anymore, now you have much bigger pressure as a killer if you didn't sacrificed 4 gens to kick the totem.

    CoH is only badly designed, cause you can't get rid of it. Right now to actually benefit from it you need to heal at least twice... and if killers actually snuffed out totems (cause they will run out eventually) the time investement would be much higher to actually heal with boons. It's also surprising to me that you mention Coh and not bs like exponential or shadowstep. Maybe it's just more 'in your face' type of effect, but literally every other boon is stronger in hands of actually good survivor than CoH.

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,698

    I strongly disagree with your first assertion- that's part of why it's not worth it to snuff, but most of the time it's actually how long it takes to get to a totem to snuff it that makes it not worth your time. If you have to make that trek twice, that's still not really in your favour even if survivors can't bless again, because you've already given up enough time getting to the damn thing that the survivors had plenty of opportunity to get their objective done. It would lessen the problem, but it wouldn't fix it; hence, bandaid.

    As for the radius, I think I agree that it isn't too large. My concern is more with the fact that it has so much vertical range as well as horizontal range, though I'm not sure I know how precisely to fix it. It's a sticky problem, and one that limited use doesn't fix whatsoever.

    CoH is actually badly designed because it incentivises the killer not being near it, something that limited use boons makes worse, not better. Exponential is trash outside of highly coordinated and moderately lucky SWFs, and Shadow Step is strong but balanced due to requiring the killer to be nearby and thus in a good position to snuff if they want/need to. I'm sure we agree Dark Theory is just trash, though, lol.

    And again, the goal here isn't just to fix the problems boons have, the goal here is to fix the problems AND not undercut the point of boons as a mechanic. Limited use boons absolutely ruins that point- it's not continual slowdown if that slowdown can't continue, after all. So we've got one bandaid fix, one thing that isn't fixed at all, one thing that's made worse, and the intended mechanical effect of boons ruined- it's not a great fix from that perspective, in my opinion.

    I'm not against something like a short cooldown after snuffing, because it could stand to have more of a direct impact than it currently has, but limited use boons or basekit Shattered Hope isn't just not a fix, it actively makes things worse.

  • SsajbambusaSsajbambusa Member Posts: 458
    edited May 19

    @jesterkind There are literally 2 spots in the entire game like this. You really are exaggerating the problem. Also this is wrong topic so I'll just agree to disagree.

    Also how does it make things worse?? What the #########? xD

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 3,698

    I never said it was a huge problem. I'm on record saying that I think the core mechanic of boons is mostly fine, it just has a few minor issues- like spots on some maps where it's never worth it to snuff. I'm pretty sure it's more than literally two, but it isn't that many.

    As for how it makes things worse, I... already said that? It's not continual slowdown if the slowdown can't continue. Unless you're referring to CoH, which I could give more details on;

    Right now, CoH is unbalanced not just because of its effect, but because it breaks the rules other boons abide by. All the other boons require the killer to be nearby to be at full usefulness- Dark Theory is hypothetically useful in chase because you're faster (even though it sucks), Exponential is stronger if you're already into or at least close by its radius when you go down because crawling to it is going to be hard, and Shadow Step's missing scratch marks aren't useful at all if the killer isn't chasing you inside it. They all, in some way, incentivise being chased within the radius, or at least leading the killer to it.

    CoH, on the other hand, is most effective when it's far away from the killer, so you have an uninterrupted heal spot. If snuffing it twice deactivated it, you'd be even more incentivised to keep it as far away from the action as possible, and so the killer will have an even harder time countering it.

  • DwightDwigtDwightDwigt Member Posts: 6

    In terms of Killer/Boon interactions, prior to this perk, Killers had 1 option: snuff the Boon.

    With Shattered Hope, Killers still have 1 option: cleanse the Boon.

    Killers need the basekit option to Snuff OR Cleanse Boons.

    This would open up trial gameplay options/decisions for Killers: Snuff to leave more NOED options/Plaything distractions, etc or Cleanse to remove Boon location permanently/add a Pentimento stack, etc.

    It's a no-brainer decision to allow Killers the basekit option to Snuff OR Cleanse Boons. In this instance, more gameplay options/decisions make for a more compelling game.

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