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Dead hard (and COH, DS, BT, etc) are one of the few good perk designs.

cordonrougecordonrouge Member Posts: 155

dead hard is "broken" because it's the only decently designed perk in a game with a really obsolete gameplay design that would have been fine maybe in 2012. dead hard is fun to use, and it's fun to use because it's interactive. instead of nerfing it, all perks should be similar to it (even killers' obviously) and the game should be balanced around that. as of right now the game prioritizes small values over long time instead of bursts of high value.

i mean, imagine if Hope gave you 30% movespeed for 10 seconds the next time you enter chase instead of 5% movespeed over 2 minutes. imagine if self care healed you in 6 seconds, but it spawned a few healing herbs that you have to find in order to use it.

perks like "get 2% gen speed" are way more boring than "get 50% gen speed for 30 seconds after a succesful chase" even assuming that they have the same exact value over the span of a game. not only that, but they're also non interactive, and dont create any fun moments in game where both the player and his teammates and opponent notice its value.

another thing: why is it that you try to balance the entire game around perks with a terrible design, instead of changing the game mechanics? for example you could make dead hard basekit and give killers a two combo hit. like lunge + small area slash after it, or two regular hits for when you get bodyblocked. the entire game would be more interactive with juking and whatnot. it's not possible that a game in 2022 is so clunky, that survivors can swarm you and all you can do is hit one at a time while they take turns tanking the hit and you have 2 seconds cd in between all of these.

arent killers supposed to be a threat? the real threat here is a table between the killer and the survivor or simply standing still in group. it's honesly pathetic.

also let me be more clear: i dont think all the perks i mentioned are meta because they're the best (some of them are, but not all), they're meta because they're designed in a way that they're fun to use and you notice their value. what i mean is, that dead hard isn't necessarily that much stronger than any other exhaustion perk. if spint burst was the interactive one instead, like requiring you to QTE shift, it would be the meta one. however there are also good designed perks that aren't meta like deception.

anyway, i guess the moral of the story is that i really have low if nonexistant expectations for the upcoming perk rework, especially considering that just now they released haddie+yoichi with the most useless, niche, and boring perks ever made. the people who created those perks are the same working on the reworked ones, keep in mind.

TL;DR: if you can't be bothered to read all of the thread please, just don't reply. if you're a killer main who read the title only and is gonna reply "oh you want survivors to be op you're trolling" please spend your time more usefully.

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Comments

  • cordonrougecordonrouge Member Posts: 155

    i mean interactive in the literal gameplay sense, not interaction between killer and survivor. it's an added gameplay mechanic. you literally get a dodge button. perks that are just free stats stickers like 10% healing speed are not really interactive.

  • NamelessNameless Member Posts: 834
    edited June 11

    So what you mean by that is active abilities and not passive abilities. Sure passive abilities are always more boring than the active ones but that doesn't mean that the active abilities are interactive or well designed perks at all.

    I feel like you're putting the bar real low if the only requirement for a well designed perk is an active ability, which still isn't that active anyways because it's not like smashing a button is so hard or fun to do. By that logic doing gens is hella fun because of skillchecks. After all, not only do you get to push a button, but you have to time it as well!

    Only... Gens are by far the least fun part about DBD for survivors.

  • cordonrougecordonrouge Member Posts: 155

    I didn't think I'd see Dead Hard being healthy for the game as a take today but here we are.

    see, you missed my point entirely. of course dead hard is not healthy in the current state of the game. im saying that it's the game's flawed base mechanics that make this perk broken where it wouldn't have been so in a normally designed game. it's not the perk itself being broken.

  • cordonrougecordonrouge Member Posts: 155

    kinda but not really. hope is a passive ability, and would still be "interactive" with the change i proposed. as in, you can see it take effect and shape your gameplay.

  • _AdamFrancis__AdamFrancis_ Member Posts: 698

    Did you really just say COH and dead hard are goodly designed

  • cordonrougecordonrouge Member Posts: 155

    i think that yes, a perk that is engaging and everyone can see its effects in game is infinitely better designed than a square status sticker you slap on your survivor for 10% healing speed. the problem is that it doesnt work because the base game mechanics are garbage. adrenaline is a greatly designed perk too, by the way.

  • Bot_Salvo88Bot_Salvo88 Member Posts: 522

    You lost me at "Dead Hard is interactive".

  • GentlemanFridgeGentlemanFridge Member Posts: 2,781

    There's a thing called overcomplication. DbD is in itself a relatively simple game. What you're suggesting here is adding an entire new layer of metagame over the metagame that already exists. Your perk buffs mean that, if they go unanswered by other perks, they are match-winning on their own. Therefore, they must be answered for the other to stand a chance at all. By simple virtue of there being 16 perk slots versus only 4, that would mean that the role with only 4 perk slots would need to have their perks be so absurdly strong to meet the level of the 16, or just be wiped every single game. Especially if the group is coordinated, they will have a 12 perk advantage over the killer.

    Your 50% repair speed buff perk would equate to 60 seconds repairing to fixing a gen solo, without any other modifiers. That's beyond busted when "winning a chase" is as simple as running in for a quick chase proc while the killer is occupied with another survivor, and dip immediately once the 'chase' begins.

  • MarigoriaMarigoria Member Posts: 5,912

    I agree with DS BT and even DH... but not with COH. I think boons were a bad idea in general.

  • cordonrougecordonrouge Member Posts: 155

    i didnt really think the numbers through, i just picked randomly as an example. i also said that both the stat stick and the proposed change could have the same value overall, but the "interactive" one would be infinitely better and healthier. also more fun = more healthy. keep in mind that this game sucks because most of the experiences it has to offer are really frustrating and therefore unfun, and therefore not. healthy.

    take another look at my self care change, for example. it takes 32 seconds to self care. while with my version you could waste 26 looking for an herb, and 6 actually healing. same value, same balance, one is fun, the other is not. one has engaging gameplay, the other is looking at the screen for 32 seconds.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 9,073

    Dead Hard is two very good perks combined into one mega-perk. In principle, the idea of an activatable perk that dodges attacks is perfectly fine, and like you said that's more interesting than a passive numerical buff. But in practice Dead Hard being both a big lunge for distance AND a way to 100% dodge attacks based on seeing the attack animation makes it far too powerful. The reason literally 75% of above average MMR survivors use Dead Hard isn't that it's "fun", it's because it's extremely effective. It has a significant statistical impact on your escape rate compared to almost any other perk, again because it's really two effects (dodging attacks and lunging for distance) that each in their own right could be perks which players would use.

    Dead Hard being as overpowered and overly popular as it is isn't an "issue with the base game", it's an issue with this specific perk needing a nerf.

  • egg_egg_ Member Posts: 1,091
    edited June 11

    Just something to add on the last point you made. I feel this is an issue: killers get so many good perks most patches, like a lot of stuff able to shake their meta or almost meta (powerful aura reading). The last good perk survivors got was CoH, which was busted. Nerfed twice, still pretty good. But before that? Game has gone years without anything able to shake the meta on the survivor side.

    The point is that without base game changes I don't see a lot of hope on the survivor side meta.

    And if the perk overhaul comes with just nerfs to "second chances" and "slowdowns", we will most likely just see another upsurge in tunneling and camping just like with coh

  • CarthCarth Member Posts: 885

    Your ideas would totally not work without a huge amount of refactoring. Favoring active abilities over passives is a totally fine view to have but would absolutely not work in DBD without restarting from scratch. The values you propose and scenarios they would make could win matches entirely on their own if they were just slapped in. Additionally nobody likes "nuke" behavior which is what you ddescribe. Sprint dashing at 500% speed away from a killer is sure satisfying is a survivor but there's no countering it as killer. Simmilarly having some active dash multi hit type move where you instantly go down as a survivor with no input from your side does not sound fun. I am absolutely not a fan of "if everything is broken, nothing is"

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 20,551

    The last good perk survivors got was CoH, which was busted. Nerfed twice, still pretty good. But before that? Game has gone years without anything able to shake the meta on the survivor side.

    I think the problem with this, and the reason I'm hopeful for the meta shakeup, is because the Survivor meta is just so balls to the walls overpowered (COH, Dead Hard) or corrects a fundamental issue within the game which should've been fixed at base (BT, DS). With basekit changes being made and nerfs being given to the most busted things, I feel like we'll be seeing a lot less perks ran for necessity and because of just how much better they are, and it should hopefully be more like the killer meta which is substantially more diverse. Like, Overzealous could be good if Prove Thyself wasn't there. Boon: Dark Theory could be useful as a loop extender if Dead Hard didn't do it's job but 60x better. Why run Off The Record when you could use Iron Will?

  • egg_egg_ Member Posts: 1,091

    Yeah, I totally agree with that. But that's what we need, a change to some base game mechanics _along_ with the meta shake up

  • Thr_ustThr_ust Member Posts: 464

    It’s nice to get a reminder every now and then of why the devs shouldn’t take community recommendations.

  • VerconisspVerconissp Member Posts: 1,469

    Already i skipped through this post while it defends dh as "Fun to Use"

    Dh is not really fun to use when you see it over and over and over and over every single ######### match 24 / 7, atleast killer shakes it up, NOT SURVIVORS APPARENTLY, they have gotten so boring and so mind-numbingly scared to even bother how to learn to loop better when they can just say:

    "OPE, IM INJURED NOW! YOU GOTTA RESPECT MY DH AND SEE ME JUST SLIDE MY WAY INTO THEM PALLET DMS CAUSE I KNOW HOW TO LOOP!"

    Honestly if they use it cause they're scared to loop, that's One thing.. But they use it to annoy the hell outta the killer and it's tiresome, Most likely than not you also think that pre-throwing and holding W is also fun..

    This ain't a post to attack Anyone, (In-case mods say otherwise) This post is moreso wanting people to R E A L I Z E Dh is a broken perk and needs to be removed for the game to be in a healthier spot,

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 3,125

    The trend has been to make playing survivor less fun with constantly nerfing fun perks and release overpowered killer perks at the same time.

    I do agree perks like CoH and Dead Hard, and yes Object of Obsession we're used because they are fun, not because they gave a significant advantage. Killer mains complain because they were used and blame their losses on them instead of their mistakes.

    Object of Obsession was fun to use but you literally are playing with more disadvantage than No Mither. Now, how many use the perk? It is Not Fun.

    Dead Hard is the same way. Sprint Burst is better by a mile but it is not as fun.

    The story here is devs should stop nerfing things because killers cry about it and if their statistics show it used a lot. High pick rates might indicate something else than what first comes to mind.

  • GannTMGannTM Member Posts: 9,628

    DS and BT, yes. DH, it depends. COH, no.

  • TragicSolitudeTragicSolitude Member Posts: 6,026

    DbD isn't a fighting game. The devs aren't going to give killers more types of basic attacks. Having a variety of attacks is for games where the opponent can fight back. I'll just say that straight off and get it out of the way.

    Perks that shift the balance of the game are poorly designed. Each side has to assume the other side is running its more powerful perks (aka meta perks) and respond in kind. If one side doesn't want to run the meta, it's very likely they're going to lose. As survivor, I die while other survivors escape because I don't want to run some meta perks (DH) and can't run others (DS). As killer, I don't feel like running slowdown perks so if survivors don't screw around the match can be over and everyone out the gates in a matter of minutes.

    It's okay if some perks are boring. Empathy is boring, but I run it all the time because it's so damn useful.

    Just because DH requires a player to press a button to activate it doesn't make it good. The killer chases a survivor, does well, injures that survivor. Being injured is supposed to mean the survivor is more vulnerable, but DH gives them a get-to-the-next-pallet-free card because... why? Reasons? And the survivor can use it over and over and over again during the match. The whole premise of the perk is busted.

    Being able to see the value of a perk has to be balanced with that perk not being busted as hell. The game should be about player vs player, not player's perks vs player's perks. When deciding whether or not a perk is well designed, it's not just about how the person running the perk feels about it, it's about how it affects the other players (teammates and the opposing side) and its overall effect on the match. DH is frustrating for the opposing side because, when used for distance, there's no counter, and it can be used multiple times during a match by any survivor running it. As survivor, I've also died because someone with DH runs behind me and then presses E when the killer swings, so I go down instead. They may think that's hilarious, but as a solo survivor that garbage gets real old real quick.

    The game needs a variety of perks. Info perks that provide useful information, like Empathy and WoO. It needs fun perks like Deception and being able to put together meme builds like Houdini on survivors or backpack builds on killers. DbD doesn't need meta perks that can be stacked on top of each other for what basically equates to multiple extra health states for survivors. And BHVR needs to get away from using perks as band-aids for problems in the game (like how DS and BT are necessary for survivors if they want a chance to play in a match rather than be tunneled out, or how slowdown perks are necessary for killers if they want enough time in a match to do anything).

  • Devil_hit11Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 2,195

    this is already a perk. Nancy has a perk called Inner strength(Now called Inner healing), You look for a totem, cleanse the totem, jump into a locker, You get 8 second heal.

    The concept of grabbing herbs(item) than healing quickly is very close to Nancy's Inner strength perk. Its just dbd simplified.

  • DaddyMyers_MoriDaddyMyers_Mori Member Posts: 374

    Nope...

    Dead Hard is best exhaustion perk and at the same time easiest to use, how is that good design?

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 6,067
    edited June 11

    I actually hope they introduce more perks like Dead Hard.

    I agree that it is fun and also interactive. I think it provides intensity that this game lacks ALOT. The killer can mind-game and bait it out in some situations WHILE the survivor can mind-game and dodge the killer's swing in some situations, and die in others.

    When I play killer and people have SB matches seem boring to me because it's basically they just gaining a lot of distance or as much as possible and holding W. I'm not a fan of playing ring around the rosie so to me it is by far the least fun part of this game.

  • BrimpBrimp Member Posts: 1,661

    Yeah no I don't find it interactive when there's a situation that I can do nothing about which I should be able to do something about without perks since its a 1v4.

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