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Solo q is going to be a massacre after the changes go through



  • GorgoniaGorgonia Member Posts: 1,585

    story of my life... or you're hooked and see their auras and you see how they're hiding in a corner of the map, doing nothing...

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,689

    But even with that extra info, there is no coordination, and coordination is truly what makes SWF powerful. SWF can basically have permanent kindred of info available, except whenever they have vision on the killer rather than the killer being near the survivor. I could be chased, see the killer on the second floor, deciding to go where my teammate claims he was working on a gen, and BAM, this situation was basically 50% of the perks in the game. The only perks they would need are Dead Hard, DS, BT and Kinship, any other perk would maybe speed up the game, but ultimately unneccesary as the above perks would prevent any kill in the first place. CoH? Nah, they just call out where they are and you can be healed up in 16 seconds, maybe even do a gen faster too since you're already there.

    Except you're forgetting this:

    A swf has a greater chance of a 3-4 man escape, even if this is a 2-man swf, a full team of solo's is very likely to have a 0-1 man escape. This alone would mean that 3-4 man escapes happen slightly more often than a 0-1 man escape. SWF also means 2 man escapes are practically guaranteed, where a 2 man escape would be quite rare for a full team of solo's.

    This means that based on that alone, SWF's together would have an escape rate of 2.8-ish, Solo's would have an escaperate of 1.3-ish per game, The rate of SWF's overall is about 50/50. This would mean that on average, based on this alone, while solos have a horrendous escape rate when put together, the survivor total average would be 2.1 escapes. And this isnt even considering deathrates of individual survivors. SWF's are more likely to save whoever they teamed up with, and rather let you die on hook. So in those games where 3 survivors escape, in a 2-man swf, that means you have a 45% chance of being dead. In 3 man SWF, thats a 95% chance that you are dead.

    This combined, would have average killrates being 1.9 kills per match, while the solo deathrate can be as much as 75%. Thats a possibility where killrates are too low, while solo survivor is still horrendous.

  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 12,985

    No one knows the rate of SWF vs solo players.

    Also I don't know where you got this solo escape rate from. Playing solo isn't a death sentence.

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,689

    Pretty sure this was 2021, which was mostly before SBMM.

    That was a 54% solo vs 46% SWF's.

    Solo players have dropped since SBMM. Either playing only when friends are available(half my friends no longer play solo surv, they used to do so on a daily basis, now they either play SWF or killer). The people I know and the people they know, and the people they know, all have stated that the majority of their friends playing DBD either stopped playing solo, or stopped playing DBD entirely since SBMM. If that is accurate over the entire community, that means solo has dropped AT LEAST with 10%(this is generously low, because applying it over the entire community would mean that 25% of players who played solo before straight up refuse playing solo survivor, dropping that chart by at least 20% because the other 25% left entirely), which in turn means SWF's have increased by 10%. So you'd have a 44% to 56% comparison.

    The worst part? this is assuming that SOLO means solo surv, not 1 player lobbies, because killer lobbies are always 1 player.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    I really don't understand this 'Solo que is hard' mentality sprouts from.

    Solo que is a stress relieving experience, especially at higher MMR.

    Like trimming a bonsai tree - predictable, low-effort.

    Sure, when you're in a lobby with silly-nannies that throw chases or get their teammates killed, it can prove to be a challenge - you almost want SWF just to remove the possibility of another feeder on your team. But once you actually start getting good, and get paired with similar MMR survivors - the game gets progressively easier and easier. SWF information can make a match far more simple, and opens up the opportunity to sweat for those 4e trials. But if people want to act like Killer is a breeze and solo que is hardcore... it goes against everything I've learned over the past 1,600+ hours of gameplay and countless hours watching streamers and content creators play and work in the game.

    Make no mistake, the changes are going to make the game into a veritable bloodbath - but mostly because of the Dead-Hard and Self-Care changes. Noob survivors are going to use Self Care and get their team killed now... and Dead-Hard is going to stop being such a crutch perk for absolute garbo survivors that learned to press E to win the game. Survivors that have come to rely on the absolute ease and free escapes provided by DeadHard and end-game DS procs are going to cry into their sleeve for a week or so - newer players who go for self cares in corners are going to ravage low MMR lobbies.

    All in all, though, survivors will find that their MMR is going to be a bit more accurate - that is unless Behavior botches the DH nerf and accidentally buffs it in the process.

    To all my fellow Solo Que players who are worried that they're about to get stomped: the only thing SWF does is grant information. If you cannot preform well with limited information, you're sure as heck not going to perform well with more information. If after the DeadHard reign of terror, survivors are still complaining that the game is too difficult - it's simple ignorance of reality. When even the developers themselves are showing concern because kill rates are low - you know the battle is lost for that.

    Low tier MMR lobbies are going to be abysmal, because silly noob survivors are going to absorb even more time and fumble around with even less efficiency now. However, this also means that any competent player is going to rise quickly - if silly survivors and noobs find escape extremely difficult, but good players are able to see the proverbial strings and hedge their bets, they will rise.

    This change will make low MMR matches a bloodbath for a short while. But soon enough, the baby dwights and stock blendettes are going to sink to the very bottom of MMR, and those who push on through are going to have a much easier time for their trouble. This is a straining effort, but it will strain the noobs from those who know better than to spend 120+ seconds on 3 heals.

  • AlcuinAlcuin Member Posts: 309

    What is killer, then, if survivor is like clipping a bonsai tree? 55% kill rate according to the latest statistics while SWF escapes at a 15% greater rate than solo survivors. Bring up what is difficult in this game. There is nothing difficult about this game mechanically, including killer. You take the average 12-year old at Arena Champs level on Fortnite and ask them to learn killer, they will go on 50-game win streaks on any killer in this game. Killer is hard, give it a rest.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    Killer is extremely stressful.

    If you're looking at kill rates, you're completely missing out on the content of the matches. Having to squeeze out 55% kill rate from the clutches of Dead Hard, DS body blockers, and proficient loopers is pulling teeth in the worst ways - especially on lower tier killers like Freddy or Saduko.

    Keep in mind, tunnelers and campers can often get 2k matches.

    If you think Killer gameplay is either easy or simplistic - especially relative to survivor gameplay - then your lack of experience is sadly showing.

  • AlcuinAlcuin Member Posts: 309

    Killer is stressful if you let it be stressful. Doesn't mean it's hard to play killer, it isn't. I've played against 4-man SWF, too. It's frustrating, but it is not the average match. You're more likely to destroy uncoordinated solos than you are to be destroyed by some death squad SWF.

    As far my experience, I've played two multiplayer games, DBD and Fortnite. Both of them are better when played casually, but only one is difficult. That's Fortnite, not DBD. DBD is a party game and always will be.

  • tendyhandstendyhands Member Posts: 268
    edited June 27

    I started running kindred and just made me hate the game. I had to turn it off because it triggered me so much seeing how often teammates are just hiding or doing nothing.

  • DemonDaddyDemonDaddy Member Posts: 3,598

    Solo is fine, high death rates are the result of poor decisions and bad plays. There are things that devs can do to increase solo coordination, but outside of that solo is not weaker.

  • HectorBrandoHectorBrando Member Posts: 2,778
    edited June 27

    I believe the changes they are doing are aimed at pleasing the huge chunk of bad Killers who get stomped by SWFs and then feel miserable, they aim to balance their sad experience of getting dabbed by SWF by giving them lambs to freely slaughter so they can feel happy again.

    Same as other games like Dota2 where the system pairs you against great players so they can massacre you and feel good but then it pairs you against bad players so you smash them and then its your turn to feel good, a never ending cycle of highs and downs.

    My prediction is Solo games will look like Berserk's eclipse.

  • GindaenGindaen Member Posts: 374

    The kill-rate for killers was hovering around a 55% average 6 months ago and there have been 3 survivor nerf patches in a row since then. It would be really suspect if kill-rates have went down in the past 6 months just out of the blue.

  • Nathan13Nathan13 Member Posts: 6,290

    solo survivors should at least be able to see their teammates loadouts in lobbies, cause if I see one survivor running the new self care I’m dodging the hell out.

  • TragicSolitudeTragicSolitude Member Posts: 6,026

    It certainly would've been nice if loadouts had been shown during these past years, that's for sure. Survivors without BT making unsafe saves when others do have BT. I'd like my teammates to know I don't have DS so they put more effort into not letting me go right back down under the hook. Being able to dodge any lobby with a Claudette running Self Care as her sole perk. Or seeing that I'm in a lobby with three survivors running no perks would give me an idea MMR has made a huge mistake and I should dip out rather than torment a brand new killer.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    The mistake here is that you've just tried to use experience in another game to justify a position.

    Not just because you are addressing the position as though you have command or insight into it, but because you are using experience through an external factor to try and assert yourself as qualified to make an absolute conclusion, which is untrue and a bit disrespectful.

    One cannot just bring in experience in another game and act as though it qualifies them to denounce the experiences of other players.

    It's unbecoming and demonstrative of the discussion at hand.

    But what the heck, let's give this a shot.

    If you want to use experience in other games to act as though you know a thing or two about Dead By Daylight, I'll play my hand at it.

    After playing over 1,600 hours of Dead By Daylight as a part of my many years of gaming experience, I have a fair amount of seniority when it comes to an educated opinion - you could not be more mistaken.

    I've played more 'competitive' games before, which qualifies my opinions more than mere 'fortnight'

    After spending over 2,000 hours in Call Of Duty, 1,400 hours in XCOM, over 1,300 hours in Fallout games, over 1,200 hours in League Of Legends, over 520 hours in Mass Effect titles, 400 hours in Rainbow Six Siege, about 500 hours in Gears Of War, 400 hours of Halo, 250 hours in Dead Space, 240 hours in Destiny, 230 hours in Overwatch, over 200 hours studying and playing Dungeons & Dragons, 180 hours in Borderlands games, 100 hours in DOOM games, and watching over a thousand hours of Fog-Whisperer content... I have more than just a relative understanding of what makes Dead By Daylight work as a game, both casually and competitively.

    I understand that you are probably playing the game at low MMR, which may explain your stance - as the killer experience at such ranks is an absolute breeze. But when you get to higher levels, SWF are not particularly any more or less difficult than normal players.

    I've been playing multiplayer games for over 13 years, and there's seldom an experience that can leave you feeling as frustrated and completely powerless as playing Killer at high MMR against competent survivors - by the game's own design and admission.

    Dead By Daylight is not a party game any more than League Of Legends, Call Of Duty, or Rainbow Six is a party game. And suggesting that you have a harder time playing Fortnight is not a qualifier to make such a bold opinion.

    I love the game, but if you're going to try to lord Fortnight experience over me to justify some sort of misguided claim that survivor gameplay is as stressful or difficult as Killer gameplay, you are sorely mistaken.

    It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another thing to try and challenge the validity of someone's opinion based on your limited experiences in a battle royale.

    Next time, either be clear about the nature of your own opinion, or use your experience in-game to justify your claims.

    Remember: Not everyone is you.

  • TizzleTizzle Member Posts: 657

    You lost me at noob Survivors are going to get their teamates killed -- as opposed to before???

    Self Care hasn't been a viable perk to use if you are a decent Survivor for a rather long time now, the time it takes is much too long to be efficient.

    Contrary to popular belief Dead Hard was never an "I win" perk, if a bad player uses this perk guess what...they're still bad.

  • AlcuinAlcuin Member Posts: 309

    It's not a moral failure to consider different things as different. At the same time, killer is stressful whereas solo survivor is like pruning a bonsai tree. Your words.

    As far as MMR, I've played survivor against gtvel and killer against angrypug. They're not low MMR.

    Killer being stressful has nothing to do with killer being difficult. I understand that the killer cannot be in four places at once and it becomes unmanageable against a 3- or 4-man SWF. My concern is with solo survivor. If all the proposed buffs for killer go through, though, solo survivor may as well be NPCs in a single player game. Doctor with Distressing, Coulrophobia, Sloppy, and Thanatophobia is an easy 4k against solos. Same with Thana Legions and Plagues. Nurse, Spirit, Blight, etc. This game cannot be both sweaty and simple. No one wants to play the role of NPC against a power-tripping killer main. It will create more SWFs if anything.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    It is not a moral failure to consider things as different.

    It is a moral failure to try to squelch someone's observations through external qualifiers, especially when such observations go against established faculties within the core aspects of the game - by the admission of both developers and professionals.

    "Killer being stressful has nothing to do with killer being difficult"

    The definition of stress is through the lens of difficulty. You cannot have something that is stressful but born of ease and elegance, you will not find a stress free environment that is founded in difficulty and volume. You essentially said 'stress has nothing to do with difficulty' when the two words are synonyms according to the Oxford Dictionary. This statement itself is self defeating and patently false.

    "Doctor.... is an easy 4k against solos"

    This is only true at low ranks. Doctor gameplay falls off abruptly approaching average MMR. Reasonably competent survivors do not have great difficulty managing pacification in loops, they do not fail reverse skill checks, and they are more than confident with the killer knowing their location. The Doctor's primary abilities include information and pacification, things that adversely effect low MMR players - but have very little effect on competent survivors who are familiar with such mechanics. To imply that Doctor is a dominant killer in the meta is telling of the kind of survivor gameplay that you've grown accustomed to - and also colors your perception of killer gameplay. If you think Doctors get easy 4ks, you're not playing the game anywhere near high MMR regardless of what you may assume. Not only is the killer choice telling, but the perk selection as well - while a fun meme build, this setup would provide very little resistance for good survivors... even at average MMR - many players are comfortable with remaining injured and run Resilience. Survivors are not intimidated by information, they are not greatly threatened by pacification, and they are not inhibited by remaining injured. If keeping survivors injured (preferably without 3 perk slots) and gathering information was all it took to get easy 4ks in this game, Legion and Plague would be unstoppable - which they, in fact, are not.

    "The game cannot be both sweaty and simple"

    Yes it can.

    You literally just said that fortnite is a more difficult game than Dead By Daylight, and that game is remarkably more simple in the lattice of its interactions than Dead By Daylight - so by your own admission, this is untrue.

    Create a Dungeons & Dragons one-shot. Before Level 3, the game is remarkably simple in concept - and has very few numbers to be concerned with, but it can be extremely difficult if designed as much; hosting a match at level 17-20 can be extremely intricate with dozens upon dozens of concurrent status effects, perks, and items being used simultaneously... but gameplay wise, it's a cakewalk for players who have a myriad of tools at their disposal to create solutions for evolving situations, making it extremely easy if designed as intended.

    Dark Souls 3 is famous for its first boss encounter where the player has hardly anything other than a weapon, and the encounter is difficult.

    Things can be both challenging and simple, things can be easy and complex.

    "No one wants to play the role of NPC against a power-tripping killer main."

    Never said they should.

    Killers are not the initial power roll in the game, survivors have the power of the match and can dictate the outcome of the match by preventing the killer from seizing their innate momentum. Killers must earn their place as the power roll by stealing it from survivors, who begin with a massive advantage that killers must race against the clock to capture. If survivors are good, they will make the killer pay so dearly for each and every health state that they bleed more time than they gain. Survivors, for all intent and purpose, are the power roll at the start of the match.

    Sad thing is, low MMR survivors do not know this and fall prey to their own ignorance in such circumstances - they simply do not know how powerful they are.

    You don't need to take my word for it - go ahead and watch professional streamers. Better yet, listen to the developers themselves who admit that killers are not able to effectuate killing as well as they'd like.

    You cannot sarcastically use the accusation that your detractors are power-hungry when the developers themselves have sided with them with reason.

    'You lost me at...' is never a good way of opening up a conversation. It may come off as ignorant or arrogant where it need not be.

    Self Care is an extremely valuable perk in the right hands. The power for survivors to regain health states in timely a timely and efficient manner is incredible in the right hands. But I think you misunderstand, I'm not saying it was flawless to begin with - however, making heals take over 40 seconds is going to obliterate low MMR lobbies. Those survivors that Urban Evasion to the corner of the map and Self-Care is going to result in a lot more SBMM hellscapes where folks are hard-stuck with Self-Care users on the low end.

    Sorry, but not only do the experience of game veterans beg to differ, but so does the data gathered by Behavior. Dead Hard is directly and unequivocally correlated to escape rates.

    That being said, saying 'this isn't particularly strong in the hands of someone incapable of using it' is a very poor stance to take. The strength of a utility is not governed by those who are incapable of wielding it. The potency of power is not determined by the inability of few to utilize its strengths appropriately. Ignorance of =/= impotence within.

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