What are your thoughts and observations on overall map design?
For me, it is that maps with Dead zones in the middle tend to favor survivors because they have to head to the edges of the map which waste more time for the killer.
They should rework the og maps again, they have soo many deadzones. Newer maps have a nice mix.
Map design is and always has been the number 1 biggest issue in the game.
The majority of maps are way too large and tiles too strong lacking realistic mind games once the pallet is thrown which in turn makes most pallets auto breaks.
They reached their peak a long time ago.
We have nothing but scraps now, both old and new.
They should completely rework the formats of some maps
Ie Azarovs resting place and sanctum of wrath
I hate the way they play because everything feels like it happens on one side and also allows for the easiest 3 gen strategies in the game
Uhhh Shelter Woods would like to have a word with you
Shelter Woods is just one huge dead zone. The only thing that survivors can really do is hold w and hope the killer is not a mobile one.
Map design is DbD's biggest issue
A nice mix of God windows and safe loops.
I actually like playing against Blight/Billy on Shelter Woods. Lots of space for them to use their power predictably, allowing me to dodge. I can't 360 to save my life, so I prefer killers with mobility on maps like Shelter Woods.
It’s the biggest issue the game has and unfortunately will either take a long time to fix or never will be fixed.
They need to re do the maps again... Gen placements, Totem placements, Tile Placements, Spawns for both sides...
Depends on the map, garden of joy would be a pretty good map imo if they deleted the main house windows
Map design issues are the main factor of Shift W pre-drop playstyle in DbD. The meta playstyle.
An incredibly boring playstyle that's used all the time now.
Map design is probably the biggest problem in the game and its not easy to fix because many big problems emanate from very different minor problems. The first step to fixing map design is standardize the maps, right now there is way too much differences between them in many fields: size (big vs small), defense philosophy (pallet centric vs window centric), main buildings (strong vs weak), gen disposition (cluster/football vs spread) and a lot of other situations.
Lets take defense philosphy for example, you want to nerf windows and to compensate buffing pallets? then The Game or Ormond get unbearable for Killers because they have already a ton of pallets and then Haddonfield and Lery get unbearable for Survivors because they have barely any pallets but very strong windows. Now size, want to buff mobility on all Killers because in big maps everyone has a hard time? then Coal Tower becomes an even bigger cakewalk.
And this with all maps, now if they where more similar between them, not identical, just less disparity between them things could be fixed without making certain maps a chore for either side.
Now I doubt theyll standardize the maps because its a massive amount of work and they have never ever show any kind of acknowledgement the maps are the biggest issue, the reworks have fixed some minor stuff like some infinite loops or certain glaring flaws and nothing else but other reworks just made stuff way way worse.
I think the map designers tend to favor form and theme over balance. A lot of maps have these massive structures with strong windows that I'm sure look cool, but there's nothing stopping a high level survivor from running that window until the Entity blocker kicks in every chase. Or in the case of the MacMillan maps, large square structures that survivors can hold W around for 30 seconds at a time and force M1 killers to bloodlust.
A lot of map assets/tiles aren't tuned around high MMR at all. Take Groaning Storehouse for instance with the long skinny portion of the map with the random tile and exit gate that typically spawns there and the burned out water tower in front of it. I'm sure every play tester at BHVR runs to the tile and waits for the killer to close the distance. A high MMR survivor runs around the water tower for 30+ seconds and then plays the tile at the end. You can't have a massive square structure with no cutoff route in high MMR play. But maps have these.
Another example: long wall jungle gyms on the Coldwind maps. They have an L shape on one end. This pretty much guarantees a fast vault for the survivor or a successful mindgame before they even have to play the pallet portion of the tile. 90% of survivors don't even know to just play the window by itself and split long wall jungle gyms into two separate tiles against M1 killers. You can't have an L shaped long wall at high level play.
If they want maps to favor certain builds or playstyles, fine. But you need to rework the lobby system then. Nothing is more frustrating than queuing up as Huntress and getting The Game or Lerys. Or running Bamboozle and getting The Game. Or running Balanced Landing and getting Shelter Woods. "Whoops! Your killer choice/loadout is useless!" If you insist on your maps being a balance catastrophe, let us make informed decisions about what we're playing on the maps.
This game has one of the worst map designs of any major game out there.
Tbh, I don't they'll ever be able to please everyone with maps. The issue is that there's such a broad range of killers/abilities/perks in use that there's no way to truly 'standardize' map size/tile placement, etc. which benefits every killer and survivor. Look at indoor maps, for example Lery's, which is really good for stealth killers but an absolute nightmare for range killers like Huntress or Deathslinger.
I think the Haddonfield rework is promising as it now feels balanced: there are a couple of 'god' pallets for survivors, but then large dead zones and easily mind-gamed pallets. Plus, in BHVR's defense, they do listen to feedback as they removed that infinite off main building on Swamp (forgot which map: Grim Pantry I think?).
Moving forward, I think they just need to not make ridiculously big maps (Temple) or ones with overly convoluted layouts (RPD!!!) and improve gen layouts and totem spawns.
BHVR needs to create another patch like 3.7.0.
For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, you can read up on that patch below.
Essentially, there are far too many safe loops with zero counterplay for any M1 killer, but when loops are counterable and have mind-games, most of the time they are death sentences for the survivor, so that's not fun either. BHVR needs to create more fun and fair tiles for both roles to play, rather than creating Gideon Meat Plant a million times over. The Game isn't a fun map, because there is no mind-game for the majority of the pallets. The gameplay is always the same. Both roles run around in a circle a few times, then the survivor drops the pallet and the killer breaks it. Do that, thirty times. Woah. So fun.
It's not just The Game that sucks. Eyrie of Cringe (yes. its that bad) has a plethora of safe pallet loops, and they're abundant. Additionally, the ones that are unsafe and require a little more skill to play, are unfortunately all worthless as they're too short and the killer can just walk around in half a second and hit you. The main building has up to two god pallets, and two god window vaults (plus 3 breakable walls, two of which are god walls and need to be broken).
Next is Haddonfield, which just got reworked, and I'm going to say it because nobody else is. They made the map more survivor sided than before, in fact, there are multiple infinites on the map. I do not mean long loops, no I am not overexaggerating. I mean, genuine infinites where the killer will lose chase and cannot gain bloodlust to catch up. This is because the loops that are infinites have multiple window vaults that have no stagger, and the killer has to walk a longer way around. Also, the frame-rate on this map sucks lol.
Last, but certainly not least, we have Garden of Pain, with a main building darker than any bottomless abyss and an infinite inside of it! Just like Haddonfield, the lack of stagger from vaulting the offending windows and the abundance of safe window vaults results in a map that is poorly balanced and extremely unfun for killers to play on.
There are plenty of other things wrong with maps, mostly breakable walls being poorly placed, resulting in repetitive boring gameplay, where if the killer doesn't break the wall, the loop is unfair and too safe, but if the wall is broken it becomes unusable and a death sentence to use. Dead Dawg Saloon needs a balance update, as well as Ormond and the Coldwind Farm maps. The rest are in a more tolerable state and aren't nearly as big of an issue.
I have been playing this game since the end of 2018 and ever since they started reworking maps, I've seen nothing but downgrades in the gameplay department. We've created so many maps that are brutally unfair for M1 killers, and have created an even larger disparity between anti-loop killers and the basic M1 killers. Additionally, with less risk in loops comes less fun for survivor. Because you no longer need to mind-game or really have much skill at looping most tiles anymore, you get bored running the killer, because you know that there is nothing they can do to outplay you.
Dead by Daylight's modern map and loop design philosophy has caused a lack in player agency in chases.
You got the point right on. Fully agree
What would be an example of a fun loop?
LT-Wall, Jungle Gym, Four-Lane, Long-Wall, G-Tile, Killer Shack, Yamaoka Garden Loop, Sanctum of Wrath main structure, generic rock loops, generic short-side debris loops... The list goes on.
All these loops allow for players to express their skill and they all have mind-game potential on both sides. The better player will often come out on top.
I just play the game.
Like others said there are many problems:
- map sizes are too different
- you need a good chasing power for many loops
- maps dont take killer into account: no hiding spots for bear traps, only short wall loops which are useless against trickster, etc.
The strength of map offerings is a good indicator, how unbalanced maps are.
Poor map design/tile placement is the reason we get so many band aid fixes in the form of perks. The maps are beautiful of course. However, there are too many safe tiles.
My suggestion is either make all the tiles safe but reduce the number of them. One survivor who knows how to run a safe tile can easily eat up 30-40s+ of the killer time at any one of these. So rework the maps to make less of them so a survivor can't run a killer for so long, and when the killer kicks the pallet the survivor can get to another safe tile to rinse/repeat. Spacing them out properly will balance the maps.
The other idea is to remove all safe tiles and replace them with more but mind-gameable tiles. Give each side a 50/50 chance at each tile. If one sides loses the chase, there is another tile nearby and they can try again.