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Self-Care redesigned

OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

Most of the strength of Self-Care comes from the fact that hits are useless when you heal. There's no drawback to getting hit multiple times if you manage to heal yourself between hits, and you can do so an unlimited number of times. Self-Care compounds the problem by allowing survivors to heal themselves.

If this game is to be balanced, survivors cannot be self-sufficient all the time. With that in mind, this is my proposed redesign:

Self-Care
Unlocks the ability to heal yourself without a Med-Kit at 25 % the normal Healing speed for each dead survivor.

Increases the efficiency of Med-Kit self-heal by 10/15/20 %.

Survivors will still be able to heal themselves just fine, but only if one or more of them have died. The perk also becomes better the more survivors are dead (to compensate for the fact that finding someone to heal you becomes increasingly difficult).
Note that it only becomes better as more survivors die. This buff will not apply if survivors escape. Obviously, disconnects would continue to be treated as a death.

Healing times with this perk per dead survivor, rounded to the nearest whole number:
1 dead survivor=64 seconds (there are still two survivors who can heal you, so there's no real reason for you to be healing yourself anyway)
2 dead survivors=32 seconds (there's only one survivor who can heal you, and they might be in a chase; this is also how it is now, which is still very powerful as evidenced by the perk's usage rates)
3 dead survivors=21 seconds (even more powerful than it is now)

Healing times with this perk per dead survivor and while being Mangled, rounded to the nearest whole number:
1 dead survivor=80 seconds (there are still two survivors who can heal you, so there's no real reason for you to be healing yourself anyway)
2 dead survivors=40 seconds (there's only one survivor who can heal you, and they might be in a chase; this is also how it is now, which is still very powerful as evidenced by the perk's usage rates)
3 dead survivors=27 seconds (even more powerful than it is now)

Comments

  • DreadnightDreadnight Member Posts: 35

    I also think that self-care is a problem. I take the post to also leave my idea.

    Self-care: Reduce the consumition rate med-kit charges by 50% when it is used to self-healing action. Also reduce the time needed to heal madness or Deep wound on you by 10/15/20%.

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 10,205

    @Orion said:
    Most of the strength of Self-Care comes from the fact that hits are useless when you heal. There's no drawback to getting hit multiple times if you manage to heal yourself between hits, and you can do so an unlimited number of times. Self-Care compounds the problem by allowing survivors to heal themselves.

    If this game is to be balanced, survivors cannot be self-sufficient all the time. With that in mind, this is my proposed redesign:

    Self-Care
    Unlocks the ability to heal yourself without a Med-Kit at 25 % the normal Healing speed for each dead survivor.

    Increases the efficiency of Med-Kit self-heal by 10/15/20 %.

    Survivors will still be able to heal themselves just fine, but only if one or more of them have died. The perk also becomes better the more survivors are dead (to compensate for the fact that finding someone to heal you becomes increasingly difficult).
    Note that it only becomes better as more survivors die. This buff will not apply if survivors escape. Obviously, disconnects would continue to be treated as a death.

    Healing times with this perk per dead survivor, rounded to the nearest whole number:
    1 dead survivor=64 seconds (there are still two survivors who can heal you, so there's no real reason for you to be healing yourself anyway)
    2 dead survivors=32 seconds (there's only one survivor who can heal you, and they might be in a chase; this is also how it is now, which is still very powerful as evidenced by the perk's usage rates)
    3 dead survivors=21 seconds (even more powerful than it is now)

    Healing times with this perk per dead survivor and while being Mangled, rounded to the nearest whole number:
    1 dead survivor=80 seconds (there are still two survivors who can heal you, so there's no real reason for you to be healing yourself anyway)
    2 dead survivors=40 seconds (there's only one survivor who can heal you, and they might be in a chase; this is also how it is now, which is still very powerful as evidenced by the perk's usage rates)
    3 dead survivors=27 seconds (even more powerful than it is now)

    Those changes seem reasonable.

  • IhatelifeIhatelife Member Posts: 4,747

    So you just wanna make this perk more useless than before? People already doesn't heal themselves and just gen rush the killer.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @Ihatelife said:
    So you just wanna make this perk more useless than before? People already doesn't heal themselves and just gen rush the killer.

    Self-Care has been the most used perk on either side since release. Why are you pretending otherwise? Note that when you're the last survivor, Self-Care would become more powerful than it is now.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 2,230
    edited February 2019

    @Ihatelife said:
    So you just wanna make this perk more useless than before? People already doesn't heal themselves and just gen rush the killer.

    So a Perk that is used by almost every single high-ranked Survivor is "useless"? Congrats on winning the Delusion Award.

  • IhatelifeIhatelife Member Posts: 4,747

    @Orion said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    So you just wanna make this perk more useless than before? People already doesn't heal themselves and just gen rush the killer.

    Self-Care has been the most used perk on either side since release. Why are you pretending otherwise? Note that when you're the last survivor, Self-Care would become more powerful than it is now.

    In most of the game I've played survivors don't really give a thing about the injure state, the would rather go repairing a gen. Self care is for the killer a waste of time for the surivors, so he can actually make more things during the match.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @Ihatelife said:

    @Orion said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    So you just wanna make this perk more useless than before? People already doesn't heal themselves and just gen rush the killer.

    Self-Care has been the most used perk on either side since release. Why are you pretending otherwise? Note that when you're the last survivor, Self-Care would become more powerful than it is now.

    In most of the game I've played survivors don't really give a thing about the injure state, the would rather go repairing a gen. Self care is for the killer a waste of time for the surivors, so he can actually make more things during the match.

    Are you playing the Legion? Because if so, that actually makes sense. The Legion's power doesn't differentiate between healthy and injured.

  • IhatelifeIhatelife Member Posts: 4,747

    @Orion said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @Orion said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    So you just wanna make this perk more useless than before? People already doesn't heal themselves and just gen rush the killer.

    Self-Care has been the most used perk on either side since release. Why are you pretending otherwise? Note that when you're the last survivor, Self-Care would become more powerful than it is now.

    In most of the game I've played survivors don't really give a thing about the injure state, the would rather go repairing a gen. Self care is for the killer a waste of time for the surivors, so he can actually make more things during the match.

    Are you playing the Legion? Because if so, that actually makes sense. The Legion's power doesn't differentiate between healthy and injured.

    Sometimes, but I still main the hag.Whenever I play solo survivor or the killer I notice that the survivors starts to treat the healing like a totems (optional objectives) gen rush is already a thing, lets don't make it even worse.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @Ihatelife said:

    @Orion said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @Orion said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    So you just wanna make this perk more useless than before? People already doesn't heal themselves and just gen rush the killer.

    Self-Care has been the most used perk on either side since release. Why are you pretending otherwise? Note that when you're the last survivor, Self-Care would become more powerful than it is now.

    In most of the game I've played survivors don't really give a thing about the injure state, the would rather go repairing a gen. Self care is for the killer a waste of time for the surivors, so he can actually make more things during the match.

    Are you playing the Legion? Because if so, that actually makes sense. The Legion's power doesn't differentiate between healthy and injured.

    Sometimes, but I still main the hag.Whenever I play solo survivor or the killer I notice that the survivors starts to treat the healing like a totems (optional objectives) gen rush is already a thing, lets don't make it even worse.

    I'm sorry, but I just don't believe your trials are representative of the whole. There's a reason Self-Care is the most used perk ever, and it's not because survivors never use it.

  • tehshadowman33tehshadowman33 Member Posts: 939

    Based on sloppy butcher + 25% healing speed = 51.5 repeating second duration to heal
    Dear god. I wonder how high we could get that even further.....
    Dying light wouldn't matter, b/c the penalties would cancel each other out.
    But assuming you're playing Freddy w/ action speed slow-down.... And no failed skill checks... With Caulurophobia... That'd be.... I have no idea how to calculate that.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @tehshadowman33 said:
    Based on sloppy butcher + 25% healing speed = 51.5 repeating second duration to heal
    Dear god. I wonder how high we could get that even further.....
    Dying light wouldn't matter, b/c the penalties would cancel each other out.
    But assuming you're playing Freddy w/ action speed slow-down.... And no failed skill checks... With Caulurophobia... That'd be.... I have no idea how to calculate that.

    Say what? I did the math, it's 80 seconds if you're healing at 25% speed. Also, you could change this like Heroes of the Storm and make it so only the highest buff or the lowest debuff applies in any given situation.

  • tehshadowman33tehshadowman33 Member Posts: 939

    @Orion said:

    @tehshadowman33 said:
    Based on sloppy butcher + 25% healing speed = 51.5 repeating second duration to heal
    Dear god. I wonder how high we could get that even further.....
    Dying light wouldn't matter, b/c the penalties would cancel each other out.
    But assuming you're playing Freddy w/ action speed slow-down.... And no failed skill checks... With Caulurophobia... That'd be.... I have no idea how to calculate that.

    Say what? I did the math, it's 80 seconds if you're healing at 25% speed. Also, you could change this like Heroes of the Storm and make it so only the highest buff or the lowest debuff applies in any given situation.

    80 seconds = 25% self-care + Max penalty nightmare action penalty 75% + 50% colourophobia penalty + 20% sloppy butcher penalty

    That doesn't sound right.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @tehshadowman33 said:

    @Orion said:

    @tehshadowman33 said:
    Based on sloppy butcher + 25% healing speed = 51.5 repeating second duration to heal
    Dear god. I wonder how high we could get that even further.....
    Dying light wouldn't matter, b/c the penalties would cancel each other out.
    But assuming you're playing Freddy w/ action speed slow-down.... And no failed skill checks... With Caulurophobia... That'd be.... I have no idea how to calculate that.

    Say what? I did the math, it's 80 seconds if you're healing at 25% speed. Also, you could change this like Heroes of the Storm and make it so only the highest buff or the lowest debuff applies in any given situation.

    80 seconds = 25% self-care + Max penalty nightmare action penalty 75% + 50% colourophobia penalty + 20% sloppy butcher penalty

    That doesn't sound right.

    16/(0.25*0.80) = 16/0.2 = 80
    0.25 healing speed from my Self-Care rework and 0.8 from Mangled (100% - 20% debuff).

  • tt_ivi_99tt_ivi_99 Member Posts: 1,308
    edited February 2019
    I dont think self-care needs any buff/nerf, the perk is perfect as It is, It already recived a nerf.

    With these change solo survivors wouldnt stand a chance. Sloppy would be pretty broken with these change.
  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @tt_ivi_99 said:
    I dont think self-care need any buff/nerf, the perk is perfect as It this.

    With these change solo survivors wouldnt stand a chance.

    This is a rework, it's neither a buff nor a nerf. Also, how would this affect solos? If anything, it affects SWF, who'd have to let each other die to make use of SC.

  • tt_ivi_99tt_ivi_99 Member Posts: 1,308
    Orion said:

    @tt_ivi_99 said:
    I dont think self-care need any buff/nerf, the perk is perfect as It this.

    With these change solo survivors wouldnt stand a chance.

    This is a rework, it's neither a buff nor a nerf. Also, how would this affect solos? If anything, it affects SWF, who'd have to let each other die to make use of SC.

    Call It as you want but you cant deny that the perk itself would be trash with these changes. 

    SWF wouldnt be affected at all, trust me I know cuz whenever I play SWF I always know where my teammates are, I can just go there and get healed. This is not the case with solos for obvious reasons.

    Solos suffer from the broken rank system enough, there is no need to punish them even more.
  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @tt_ivi_99 said:
    Call It as you want but you cant deny that the perk itself would be trash with these changes. 

    SWF wouldnt be affected at all, trust me I know cuz whenever I play SWF I always know where my teammates are, I can just go there and get healed. This is not the case with solos for obvious reasons.

    Solos suffer from the broken rank system enough, there is no need to punish them even more.

    Solos are being buffed to the same level as SWF, in terms of information. Once that happened, this would not affect solos. With these changes, the perk would only be usable when there's an actual need for it to be usable, which is when there are few (or no) people to heal you.

  • tt_ivi_99tt_ivi_99 Member Posts: 1,308
    Orion said:

    @tt_ivi_99 said:
    Call It as you want but you cant deny that the perk itself would be trash with these changes. 

    SWF wouldnt be affected at all, trust me I know cuz whenever I play SWF I always know where my teammates are, I can just go there and get healed. This is not the case with solos for obvious reasons.

    Solos suffer from the broken rank system enough, there is no need to punish them even more.

    Solos are being buffed to the same level as SWF, in terms of information. Once that happened, this would not affect solos. With these changes, the perk would only be usable when there's an actual need for it to be usable, which is when there are few (or no) people to heal you.

    SWF strenght doesnt come from the voice chat, yes that provides an advantage but it's not their main strenght.

    SWF is so powerful because every survivor inside that group knows how to loop, hide, hit great skill checks and knows every single trick in the game. In other words: SWF are powerful because they have a good rank system.

    Meanwhile we have solo players playing with people who dont belong to rank 1 but belong to rank 8-9. Even if solos had good comunication they would still suck. I cant count the amount of times I've died on my first hook even when having the perk "Kindred".

    The only way to balance this game is by fixing rank system and then buff all killers to Billy Tier.
  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 2,823
    edited February 2019

    If Self Care worked this way there would be no reason to use it instead of a medkit or Pharmacy, imo. Personally I think the perk is fine as it is, if anything, I would change the healing speed to 45% so it would be less efficient than to be healed by someone else.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @tt_ivi_99 said:
    SWF strenght doesnt come from the voice chat, yes that provides an advantage but it's not their main strenght.

    SWF is so powerful because every survivor inside that group knows how to loop, hide, hit great skill checks and knows every single trick in the game. In other words: SWF are powerful because they have a good rank system.

    Meanwhile we have solo players playing with people who dont belong to rank 1 but belong to rank 8-9. Even if solos had good comunication they would still suck. I cant count the amount of times I've died on my first hook even when having the perk "Kindred".

    The only way to balance this game is by fixing rank system and then buff all killers to Billy Tier.

    Now you're just moving the goalpost. Your counter was that this would screw over solos because they wouldn't know where their teammates were, so they couldn't be healed, whereas SWF always know where their teammates are. This is a fair criticism, which I addressed by pointing out that the devs are going to make solos have roughly the same information as SWF, so this would be a non-issue.
    Now you're completely ignoring that and saying that the issue with SWF is that the players know how to play the game in a way that many people consider skilled. How would that have any bearing here?

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    @White_Owl said:
    If Self Care worked this way there would be no reason to use it instead of a medkit or Pharmacy, imo. Personally I think the perk is fine as it is, if anything, I would change the healing speed to 45% so it would be less efficient than to be healed by someone else.

    That would depend on how long they can stay alive. Sure, for bad players, this perk would be useless. They'd die before they could use it. For good players, on the other hand...

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 2,823
    edited February 2019

    @Orion said:

    @White_Owl said:
    If Self Care worked this way there would be no reason to use it instead of a medkit or Pharmacy, imo. Personally I think the perk is fine as it is, if anything, I would change the healing speed to 45% so it would be less efficient than to be healed by someone else.

    That would depend on how long they can stay alive. Sure, for bad players, this perk would be useless. They'd die before they could use it. For good players, on the other hand...

    From my experience the most amount of healing in a match is when there are 4 survivors, and drops significantly at 3 (less pallets, less gens to patrol etc, so in general not being downed is rarer). At 2 or 1 healing is basically out of the equation unless in rare cases, and a medkit would still be more efficient. So I think with this change the perk would be almost literally useless.

  • tt_ivi_99tt_ivi_99 Member Posts: 1,308
    Orion said:

    @tt_ivi_99 said:
    SWF strenght doesnt come from the voice chat, yes that provides an advantage but it's not their main strenght.

    SWF is so powerful because every survivor inside that group knows how to loop, hide, hit great skill checks and knows every single trick in the game. In other words: SWF are powerful because they have a good rank system.

    Meanwhile we have solo players playing with people who dont belong to rank 1 but belong to rank 8-9. Even if solos had good comunication they would still suck. I cant count the amount of times I've died on my first hook even when having the perk "Kindred".

    The only way to balance this game is by fixing rank system and then buff all killers to Billy Tier.

    Now you're just moving the goalpost. Your counter was that this would screw over solos because they wouldn't know where their teammates were, so they couldn't be healed, whereas SWF always know where their teammates are. This is a fair criticism, which I addressed by pointing out that the devs are going to make solos have roughly the same information as SWF, so this would be a non-issue.
    Now you're completely ignoring that and saying that the issue with SWF is that the players know how to play the game in a way that many people consider skilled. How would that have any bearing here?

    Because you said that solos are being buffed to SWF lvl in terms of information. I assumed that's why you wanted Self-care to be reworked.

    I explained how information doesnt really make any difference if everyone in your team are potatoes, which is the case for solo survivors. Thus eliminating the need of a change to Selfcare.

    Dont get me wrong I want every killer to be viable at red ranks because I also enjoy playing killer but this change will only make survivors team up whenever they meet other good survivors, thus resulting in more SWF teams and this rework would only hurt Killers because those SWF would just equip perks to either Genrush even more or go with the No Mither + Sabo Hook. That's what I'd do as SWF player.
  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 4,570

    I think self-care is now fine as it is (since the base healing time got increased to 16s).

    As a killer, I'm fine with a survivor self-caring without items instead of doing gens. When I play surv, I usually don't use SC anymore since it consumes too much time and I go for something else instead, for example Bond.

    There are some survivor toys I'd like to have a talk about but I don't consider SC one of them.

  • The_CrusaderThe_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688

    I think self-care is now fine as it is (since the base healing time got increased to 16s).

    As a killer, I'm fine with a survivor self-caring without items instead of doing gens. When I play surv, I usually don't use SC anymore since it consumes too much time and I go for something else instead, for example Bond.

    There are some survivor toys I'd like to have a talk about but I don't consider SC one of them.

    I feel the same. I dropped self-care because it was too slow, especially when killers are all running sloopy butcher.

    Look at sabotage. It's something you can use if desperate, but most will use a toolbox if they want to sabotage.

    Self-care should be the same. It's there if you really need it but ideally it will be a last resort. I think with the current healing times this is what it is. Getting healed by a teammate or using a med kit is preferrable.

    I think survivors who complain about self-care speed forget this and they want it like the old days where it's a way they can easily use to heal every time.

    Killers complaining should apply mangled. 40 seconds is enough to have a survivor out of action for.
  • tt_ivi_99tt_ivi_99 Member Posts: 1,308
    Orion said:

    @tt_ivi_99 said:
    I dont think self-care need any buff/nerf, the perk is perfect as It this.

    With these change solo survivors wouldnt stand a chance.

    This is a rework, it's neither a buff nor a nerf. Also, how would this affect solos? If anything, it affects SWF, who'd have to let each other die to make use of SC.

    Call It as you want but you cant deny that the perk itself would be trash with these changes. 

    SWF wouldnt be affected at all, trust me I know cuz whenever I play SWF I always know where my teammates are, I can just go there and get healed. This is not the case with solos for obvious reasons.

    Solos suffer from the broken rank system enough, there is no need to punish them even more.
  • tt_ivi_99tt_ivi_99 Member Posts: 1,308
    Orion said:

    @tt_ivi_99 said:
    I dont think self-care need any buff/nerf, the perk is perfect as It this.

    With these change solo survivors wouldnt stand a chance.

    This is a rework, it's neither a buff nor a nerf. Also, how would this affect solos? If anything, it affects SWF, who'd have to let each other die to make use of SC.

    Call It as you want but you cant deny that the perk itself would be trash with these changes. 

    SWF wouldnt be affected at all, trust me I know cuz whenever I play SWF I always know where my teammates are, I can just go there and get healed. This is not the case with solos for obvious reasons.

    Solos suffer from the broken rank system enough, there is no need to punish them even more.
  • DexyIVDexyIV Member Posts: 499

    I don't even use SC anymore, so do what you wish with it. ATM I think it's fine though considering sloppy butcher is a thing

  • MarvettMarvett Member Posts: 159

    why do you guys(Killers) hate self-care?
    i mean
    how many times do you find a surv thanks to self-care?
    how many times do you gain extra time thanks to self-care?

    if SC get nerfed then Survivors will adapt using iron will and will repair generators even faster.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    @Marvett said:
    why do you guys(Killers) hate self-care?
    i mean
    how many times do you find a surv thanks to self-care?
    how many times do you gain extra time thanks to self-care?

    if SC get nerfed then Survivors will adapt using iron will and will repair generators even faster.

    Honestly I think it's survivors that hate self care more than anything. For the same reason everyone hates DS in that it's almost required to be viable

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