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Make the game more about stealth and less about the chase

NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262
edited February 8 in General Discussions

Make the game Stealth oriented. Not Chase oriented
In the current meta the entire game is based around the idea of the chase, the Killers have lots of tools to find the survivors who have too few tools to hide. This ends up meaning that the perks and powers which help in the chase end up disproportionally better than everything else. I think significantly buffing the survivors ability to hide and significantly nerfing their ability to run. This helps in a few of different areas the game currently is weak in:

Atmosphere

Dead by daylight is supposed to be a horror game. The best way to make that work is to have the core gameplay be about hiding in a tense situation. However right now the game is about running which is far too actiony for horror and ends up just feeling silly. A killer that can see you should feel like a MASSIVE threat compared to a killer that can't, in comparison a killer that can't see you should be more of a roadblock than a threat, that is of course unless you left a sign of where you are without realizing it.

Balence

The currently best perks for survivors and the best killers are all of the chase oriented ones. Think how much the Nurse breaks the game because of how she ignores all of the windows and pallets, if those were less of a focus and more of a last resort then a blink would be far less of a broken mechanic. And the currently worst killers in the game are the ones who are themselves stealthy and the ones who excel at tracking over chasing. Rebalancing the game around stealth would turn this on it's head and make the chase oriented killers more about map pressure and stealth oriented killers can be more effective due to mitigating stealth which is more important if it is more of a threat.

Specifics

The exact details of how this is accomplish is not important. However I should suggest some anyways as it is far easier to state a goal than a method

  • Nerf survivor speed boosters around the board. Things like sprint burst and lice should be 125% instead of 150%
  • Nerf Killer aura tracking perks. Blood and Chili for example might only trigger on the 1st few hooks depending on rarity and bittur murmur could be only the person who actually was working on the generator instead of just those nearby it
  • Add in more variety to hiding spots. Things like lockers that aren't lockers. Maybe crawl spaces that connect 2 places but you can be grabbed while using them and there is no fast option.
  • Nerf obvious tracking mechanics, buff subtle ones. I'm saying make noise notifications all be heard at a much shorter range (maybe only a little outside a terror radius) in general and reduce scratch mark time. However make breathing noises, running footsteps ect a bit louder and add in footprints on some surfaces that last longer than scratches but not as long as blood and are always seen while not croutching
  • Nerf all stuns (but not blinds). Things like pallet stuns and DS should not last nearly as long (like 30-40% less around the board) and with Endurence should be almost nonexistent. Actually breaking pallets would not need to be shorter.
  • Less loops, more forks. The killers main threat in a chase should not be windows or pallets, it should be blind spots and places the survivor can use to quickly get out of sight.
  • Increase survivor walking speed, decrease running speed. So that distance can be capicalised on by survivors by getting out of sight more so than getting to another loop.
  • Increase Killer Vaulting speed. Not to survivor speed or anything but still like 10% ish faster than it is now. If a Killer takes all the Vaulting perks and maxes them then it should be survivor speed (note: thats 2 perk slots I'm pretty sure. And remember that fire up takes time to build up)
  • Increase survivor hitbox. Nothing more to say here
  • Make gens easier to do but also add other requirements to escaping. For example maybe grabbing an item in the basement. If its something that could be camped such as a basement key then powering ALL the generators should be a secondary way to open the gates, doing this should take much longer than 5 gens now but that would just be the plan B

Probably a lot of other stuff I'm not thinking of

Comments

  • BongbingbingBongbingbing Member Posts: 1,423

    The game does already have stealth aspects and you can especially see this with newer players but the problem is as people get more familiar with the game they become less scared. They know the limits of a killer and it becomes a fun chase rather than a run for their life.

    Making the game solely about stealth would just change it into a completely different game. It might be nice as a new game mode but this change would be too drastic to do to the base game.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    Not at all required or anything. But maybe give the survivors a stamina bar so you can't run forever and remove scratch marks entirely. Exhaust ability's would instead consume a lot of stamina. Running out of stamina would prevent you from running until it filled back up over a few seconds and the Exhaustion debuff would make it recharge slower or deplete faster. Would need to remove bloodlust cuz it would be redundant but it would certainly make a chase FAR more about vision than distance.

    Maybe also have the Killers get one exclusive tracking perk slot (which is also the only slot that can have a tracking perk). And the same for Survivors and exhaustion perks.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    @Bongbingbing said:
    The game does already have stealth aspects and you can especially see this with newer players but the problem is as people get more familiar with the game they become less scared. They know the limits of a killer and it becomes a fun chase rather than a run for their life.

    Making the game solely about stealth would just change it into a completely different game. It might be nice as a new game mode but this change would be too drastic to do to the base game.

    I know it has stealth aspects. I mean to make those aspects a bigger focus rather than a chase. Stealth games are fun so why can't this be more like one?

    I tried to keep the exact suggestions as non-drastic as possible considering the goal (so still pretty drastic but not reworking the fundamental mechanics besides maybe the gens which have their own problems and are the most likely thing to be reworked in the first place)

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 4,455
    edited February 8

    You basically touched on issue.

    The core reason why the game is about looping and not hiding is because of how way overly strong pallets and windows are. This coupled with the hitbox differences is what causes the problem.

    This is also why almost all the tier 1 killers are killers who can in some shape or form counter looping.

    None of your abilities counter looping? That basically auto puts you at mid-tier at best.

    The only exception to this is Billy and that's just because he is insanely powerful in every other area to compensate, is very easy to play and his downsides are very low/extremely forgiving.

    We just need A LOT of extra brush/debri/hiding places and "corn" if you will, to be able to not just hide but also make jukes mid chase. In return for this pallets and windows get weakened.

    The issue isn't that stealth perks are weak or that killer tracking perks are too strong, it's just how much better loops are. We don't need to nerf killer tracking perks.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    @Blueberry said:
    You basically touched on issue.

    The core reason why the game is about looping and not hiding is because of how way overly strong pallets and windows are. This coupled with the hitbox differences is what causes the problem.

    This is also why almost all the tier 1 killers are killers who can in some shape or form counter looping.

    None of your abilities counter looping? That basically auto puts you at mid-tier at best.

    The only exception to this is Billy and that's just because he is insanely powerful in every other area to compensate, is very easy to play and his downsides are very low/extremely forgiving.

    We just need A LOT of extra brush/debri/hiding places and "corn" if you will, to be able to not just hide but also make jukes mid chase. In return for this pallets and windows get weakened.

    The issue isn't that stealth perks are weak or that killer tracking perks are too strong, it's just how much better loops are. We don't need to nerf killer tracking perks.

    I am indeed aware. Hence why I only spent 2 points talking about perks and like 7 talking about map design and looping mechanics.

    A stamina mechanic would probably be the most effective solution and would be what I would do if I was designing this game from scratch. But that might be too big of a change to reasonably implement.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    In fact. I'ma make the stamina idea it's own thread cuz it's not my main solution and if I try and talk about it here then people who don't like it would miss the core idea I'm trying to push.

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    Can’t think of many stealth horror games to be honest 
  • HavelmomDaS1HavelmomDaS1 Member Posts: 1,948
    edited February 9
    Chasing is the best part. I don't have fun stealthing nor do I have fun searching for immersive claudettes. And from my feeling I would say 70% of the community has the same mindset (keep in mind that I only count people who have at least 100 hours playtime).
    Post edited by HavelmomDaS1 on
  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262
    Paddy4583 said:
    Can’t think of many stealth horror games to be honest 
    Amnesia dark dissent comes to mind
  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    Paddy4583 said:
    Can’t think of many stealth horror games to be honest 
    Amnesia dark dissent comes to mind
    Not really a good comparison though. 
  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 3,126

    For a Survivor that would be fun, not for all of them of course. But for Killers it wouldn't be as much fun, searching for Survivors is my biggest problem, that's why I use tracking perks. I enjoy the chase, I wouldn't mind that the chases could potentially be shorter because it was more stealth oriented and my tracking perks would be even more powerful because of it but other Killers enjoy chases a lot more and would get bored real fast with endless searching. A lot of Killers enjoy chases and mindgames, I enjoy beating the Survivors and scaring them.

  • Warlock_2020Warlock_2020 Member Posts: 1,282

    I think this game would stand to gain a lot from a more stealth-based mode. Even as killer, if the ability to expose steal survivors were based on certain levels of sound and activity, but not aura site, it would be fun. Almost like having the survivor become more reckless and have a higher risk of making noise the killer can track if in the killer's TR. (Tripping gasping in fear, knocking something over, etc.) This would help increase killer/survivor interaction without eliminating a survivor's skill at staying unseen as many aura perks do.

  • DreamnomadDreamnomad Member Posts: 1,914

    Stealth is boring. Chases are fun. So I'm just going to have to disagree.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    I think this game would stand to gain a lot from a more stealth-based mode. Even as killer, if the ability to expose steal survivors were based on certain levels of sound and activity, but not aura site, it would be fun. Almost like having the survivor become more reckless and have a higher risk of making noise the killer can track if in the killer's TR. (Tripping gasping in fear, knocking something over, etc.) This would help increase killer/survivor interaction without eliminating a survivor's skill at staying unseen as many aura perks do.

    This. Exactly. It's what I meant by:
    "Nerf obvious tracking mechanics, buff subtle ones" 
    Probably not a randomness thing, maybe have it be a skill check or something? But yeah I'm not saying we need to destroy the Killer's ability to find people, just make it the part of the game that requires the most skill, even if you are currently chasing someone the actual getting to them should be inevitable and somewhat fast if they can't break sight of you quickly.

    Honestly the biggest thing would be a map change to accommodate this moreso than any mechanics change.

    Remember a short chase is fun while a long chase is frustrating (at least for a killer). A short and decisive chase is fun for everyone regardless of if it's because the Killer lost sight of the Survivor or the Killer downed him. 

    Maybe we could also add more ways to interact with the environment such as doors and lamps? 
  • BossBoss Member, Trusted Posts: 7,134

    I'd moreso prefer if both were just better options instead of one.

    I always preferred stealth, but the BP gains weren't ever that huge (but always more than people here say they get for getting chased around and not doing anything else) & it could be a huge drag if the Killer had Whispers.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    @Boss said:
    I'd moreso prefer if both were just better options instead of one.

    I always preferred stealth, but the BP gains weren't ever that huge (but always more than people here say they get for getting chased around and not doing anything else) & it could be a huge drag if the Killer had Whispers.

    That would be close enough. How much if any of the specific suggestions do you think would accomplish that?

    I'd say that at minimum some map and objective changes would be very beneficial to a stealth play style.

    I personally love games about tracking and finding hidden opponents, or games about sneaking. I play a lot of single player stealth games and I wish there was more out there for multiplayer games. I used to play evolve a lot when it was still a thing, I liked it better before tracking was trivial.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    Also Quick and Quiet is the best perk in terms of improving the game. Change my mind

  • BossBoss Member, Trusted Posts: 7,134

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @Boss said:
    I'd moreso prefer if both were just better options instead of one.

    I always preferred stealth, but the BP gains weren't ever that huge (but always more than people here say they get for getting chased around and not doing anything else) & it could be a huge drag if the Killer had Whispers.

    That would be close enough. How much if any of the specific suggestions do you think would accomplish that?

    I'd say that at minimum some map and objective changes would be very beneficial to a stealth play style.

    I personally love games about tracking and finding hidden opponents, or games about sneaking. I play a lot of single player stealth games and I wish there was more out there for multiplayer games. I used to play evolve a lot when it was still a thing, I liked it better before tracking was trivial.

    Maybe increase the volume of Survivor breathing noises accordingly, but...
    I would LOVE more, thematically correct hiding spots.

    Hiding under beds in Lery's Memorial Institute (the bed would have the covers cover the crawlspace), single-hedge bushes on Haddonfield, hollow fallen trees that you can crawl into on Swamp maps, etc. etc.

    It's just a thing i like, i'm not claiming it would actually be a healthy addition, idk about that.

  • DemonDaddyDemonDaddy Member Posts: 1,486
    A good chase is fun but it has become the default defense good survivors use. Given that they aren't caught out in the open, many know just how to prevent a killer from ever being a threat through chase. While quick thinking and action can/should aid in escape,  survivors are opting for a prolonged chase. I think a good balance is best, but right now it feels very chase centered. As a survivor I like the chase but only as a means of escape; a long game of follow the leader gets very boring. As killer I prefer the hunt, pressuring them away from gens and closing a chase, there is no satisfaction in the chase itself only the end result.
  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 5,493

    1) Stealth already exists in the game and it's quite powerful IF you know how to actually do it.
    2) As killer, stealth is very boring and frustrating to deal with. When you walk around and feel like you are alone on the map the game is really dull.
    3) As survivor, the game is way more fun when you get chased. Stealth has it's place but it should definitely not be the emphasis of the game.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    @thesuicidefox said:
    1) Stealth already exists in the game and it's quite powerful IF you know how to actually do it.
    2) As killer, stealth is very boring and frustrating to deal with. When you walk around and feel like you are alone on the map the game is really dull.
    3) As survivor, the game is way more fun when you get chased. Stealth has it's place but it should definitely not be the emphasis of the game.

    1) Clearly not enough given how the chase ends up being the primary means of defense when it should be secondary at most and more likely a last resort.
    2) As a Killer main I highly disagree. I prefer tracking gameplay to chasing gameplay. An extended chase gets frustrating far faster than an extended search while shorter more decisive chases are extremely satisfying and having a more stealth focused game solves many if not most of the balance issues with the killers
    3) As a Killer main it's not really easy to say for sure. But there are other people on this thread who have already stated their preference towards stealth as a survivor.

  • SpitfireOrMichinaSpitfireOrMichina Member Posts: 197

    There is a lot of things they could make to improve or change the game to be more stealth. Add animation to trees, grass, stuff life tarp on cars to make them move, or add wind physics. Actualy, the map are nothing but static objects. When the killer see something moving, he already know it's a survivor because that's the only thing that move in the map.

  • KhroalthemadbomberKhroalthemadbomber Member Posts: 893
    Urban Evasion, Iron Will, Spine Chill, Stake Out.

    This build combined with decent map awareness works great.
  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 5,493
    edited February 9

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @thesuicidefox said:
    1) Stealth already exists in the game and it's quite powerful IF you know how to actually do it.
    2) As killer, stealth is very boring and frustrating to deal with. When you walk around and feel like you are alone on the map the game is really dull.
    3) As survivor, the game is way more fun when you get chased. Stealth has it's place but it should definitely not be the emphasis of the game.

    1) Clearly not enough given how the chase ends up being the primary means of defense when it should be secondary at most and more likely a last resort.
    2) As a Killer main I highly disagree. I prefer tracking gameplay to chasing gameplay. An extended chase gets frustrating far faster than an extended search while shorter more decisive chases are extremely satisfying and having a more stealth focused game solves many if not most of the balance issues with the killers
    3) As a Killer main it's not really easy to say for sure. But there are other people on this thread who have already stated their preference towards stealth as a survivor.

    1) Because when you find them it's going to be a chase anyway. It's not a last resort, IT IS THE CORE DESIGN OF THE GAME. Literally everything in the game is based on loops and mind games, which is what a chase basically is. Every tile has been built over time to minimize abusive loops but at the same time give survivors tools to escape.
    2) Then you probably shouldn't play killer. Or even play the game. Because again chase is part of the core design of the game. Also I question how much of a "killer main" you are because any killer worth their survivor salt knows how annoying it is to be looking for a p3 Claud with Urban on Coldwind or Macmil maps. Or how frustrating heavy fog is.
    3) Survivors prefer stealth because it's easier than a chase. Stealth just means the killer doesn't see you and is basically no threat to you. A chase means you can die, and truth be told 90% of survivors suck hard in a chase. The 10% that know how to get chased are the ones people complain about.

    Stealth is 100% viable if you know what you are doing, but most survivors don't really understand how to do it properly. They think hiding in a corner, or crouch walking through an open field in the distance is stealth. Good killers will know where to look and will see you. I catch people doing this BS all the time and they think I don't see them. There is also sound of grass/footsteps, scratches, crows... there are a lot of things that give away your position that, if you don't play killer, you probably won't realize are giving you away. To play stealthy you have to KNOW what a killer sees and hears, and KNOW how a killer thinks. Breaking line of sight and staying quiet when the killer is within a certain distance is how you properly stealth, not hiding in a bush somewhere.

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 1,865

    Have you ever played killer against immersed survivors that do nothing but hiding? It's boring af. Stealth is fun only for the survivor doing it.

  • HavelmomDaS1HavelmomDaS1 Member Posts: 1,948

    @thesuicidefox said:
    1) Stealth already exists in the game and it's quite powerful IF you know how to actually do it.
    2) As killer, stealth is very boring and frustrating to deal with. When you walk around and feel like you are alone on the map the game is really dull.
    3) As survivor, the game is way more fun when you get chased. Stealth has it's place but it should definitely not be the emphasis of the game.

    1) Clearly not enough given how the chase ends up being the primary means of defense when it should be secondary at most and more likely a last resort.
    2) As a Killer main I highly disagree. I prefer tracking gameplay to chasing gameplay. An extended chase gets frustrating far faster than an extended search while shorter more decisive chases are extremely satisfying and having a more stealth focused game solves many if not most of the balance issues with the killers
    3) As a Killer main it's not really easy to say for sure. But there are other people on this thread who have already stated their preference towards stealth as a survivor.

    To your second point: 
    Do you want me to introduce you my Squadette stealth team? We can do 3 gens before you even find a single survivor, by the time you found the first we are done and out. And all because we stealthed the living [BAD WORD] out of you. Trust me, you ain't having fun with that. 
  • ChickenChicken Member Posts: 93

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:
    Not at all required or anything. But maybe give the survivors a stamina bar so you can't run forever and remove scratch marks entirely. Exhaust ability's would instead consume a lot of stamina. Running out of stamina would prevent you from running until it filled back up over a few seconds and the Exhaustion debuff would make it recharge slower or deplete faster. Would need to remove bloodlust cuz it would be redundant but it would certainly make a chase FAR more about vision than distance.

    Maybe also have the Killers get one exclusive tracking perk slot (which is also the only slot that can have a tracking perk). And the same for Survivors and exhaustion perks.

    Yo i really like this

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