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Insta-heal Balance Suggestions

24

Comments

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 3,731
    edited February 9
    Personally, I'd want to see nerfs to Memento Moris (except the Cypress one), Keys (except the Broken one), and insta-heals add-ons (both Styptic Agent and Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringe).

    Not sure how I'd do the first two, but I think the insta-heals have a few ways of going about it.  Two come to mind:

    1) Add a skill check that the Survivors need to hit to get the insta-heal.  Hit the check, and they insta-heal + lose the Med-Kit.  Miss the check, and they lose some charges on the Med-Kit (meaning that if they miss too many times on the insta-heal, the Med-Kit breaks).

    Would look something like this:

    Styptic Agent
    Very Rare Med-Kit Add-on
    -Reduces charges by 25%
    -Use the secondary action to trigger a difficult skill check.  Succeed the skill check to instantly heal one health state and consume the Med-Kit.  Failing the skill check uses 4 charges.

    2) Make it so that a Survivor still has to heal themselves normally with a Med-Kit, and the Styptic Agent/A-H Syringe add-ons would immediately kick in on the first skill check they successfully hit.  Maybe just consume the add-on instead of the whole Med-Kit as compensation?

    Something like this:

    Styptic Agent
    Very Rare Med-Kit Add-on
    -Succeed a skill check while healing to instantly heal one health state and consume this add-on.
  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.

    I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.

    In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?

    Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.

    First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.

    As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.

    It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.

    "You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.

    Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.

    Make a thread about nerfing Mori's then. I'm certainly up for the idea if you have something specific in mind

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 4,173

    I think they are an issue. Not sure how I'd go about fixing them though. I'm not keen on OP
    s ideas as they don't really make since imo.

    The insta heals kill so much time and pressure. As soon as ones used you pretty much have to go into heavy try hard mode to try and make up that lost time and pressure.

  • Kind_LemonKind_Lemon Member Posts: 617

    The only issue with insta-heals is that they are used during chase. If there were a condition saying that pressing the secondary action button while healing does not apply in chase, the insta-heals would be fine.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @Kind_Lemon said:
    The only issue with insta-heals is that they are used during chase. If there were a condition saying that pressing the secondary action button while healing does not apply in chase, the insta-heals would be fine.

    That's why I was suggesting giving the insta-heals the exposed status effect for 30 seconds: It would take care of the problem with insta-heals during chases.

    Chases are too easily interrupted for just a few couple of seconds. If you would change it so that insta-heals can't be used during chases, it would not solve the problem, I'm afraid.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @Blueberry said:
    I think they are an issue. Not sure how I'd go about fixing them though. I'm not keen on OP
    s ideas as they don't really make since imo.

    The insta heals kill so much time and pressure. As soon as ones used you pretty much have to go into heavy try hard mode to try and make up that lost time and pressure.

    Yup. The insta-heals especially take a lot of the killer's time if they are used during a chase. That's why I am suggesting giving the exposed status for 30 seconds: It would solve the problem with people healing in front of the killer.

    Another version for a rework: Don't make the insta-heal a complete health state but only like 50 % of the health bar. What do you think about that?

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 4,173

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Blueberry said:
    I think they are an issue. Not sure how I'd go about fixing them though. I'm not keen on OP
    s ideas as they don't really make since imo.

    The insta heals kill so much time and pressure. As soon as ones used you pretty much have to go into heavy try hard mode to try and make up that lost time and pressure.

    Yup. The insta-heals especially take a lot of the killer's time if they are used during a chase. That's why I am suggesting giving the exposed status for 30 seconds: It would solve the problem with people healing in front of the killer.

    Another version for a rework: Don't make the insta-heal a complete health state but only like 50 % of the health bar. What do you think about that?

    I like that idea of the best insta heal only doing 1 health state, that's a little more manageable than the double.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @Blueberry said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Blueberry said:
    I think they are an issue. Not sure how I'd go about fixing them though. I'm not keen on OP
    s ideas as they don't really make since imo.

    The insta heals kill so much time and pressure. As soon as ones used you pretty much have to go into heavy try hard mode to try and make up that lost time and pressure.

    Yup. The insta-heals especially take a lot of the killer's time if they are used during a chase. That's why I am suggesting giving the exposed status for 30 seconds: It would solve the problem with people healing in front of the killer.

    Another version for a rework: Don't make the insta-heal a complete health state but only like 50 % of the health bar. What do you think about that?

    I like that idea of the best insta heal only doing 1 health state, that's a little more manageable than the double.

    So you mean the Syringe should heal one health state and the Styptic Agent like 50% of one health state?

    That would not change the issue that survivors are healing in front of the killer during a chase.

  • NaiadNaiad Member Posts: 180

    @Kind_Lemon said:
    The only issue with insta-heals is that they are used during chase. If there were a condition saying that pressing the secondary action button while healing does not apply in chase, the insta-heals would be fine.

    This makes insta-heals virtually useless. If I'm not in a chase why would I use a rare single use item to heal when I could just take a normal medkit with charge/speed add-ons or self-heal?

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @Naiad said:

    @Kind_Lemon said:
    The only issue with insta-heals is that they are used during chase. If there were a condition saying that pressing the secondary action button while healing does not apply in chase, the insta-heals would be fine.

    This makes insta-heals virtually useless. If I'm not in a chase why would I use a rare single use item to heal when I could just take a normal medkit with charge/speed add-ons or self-heal?

    You can still save a lot of time with insta-heals.

    My point is that the healing while being in a chase is too strong.

  • ArrozArroz Member Posts: 1,434

    @NoShinyPony said:
    While being in a chase, survivors can use an insta-heal to heal in front of the killer and take 1 more hit. This effect doesn't have a downside at the moment, but I think high rewards should also come with a risk.

    I have two different suggestions to make the insta-heal add-ons more balanced.

    Version 1:
    The survivor who got healed with an insta-heal suffers from the exposed status effect for 30 seconds.

    Version 2:
    Keep the current insta-heal and give killers a similar add-on for one-time-use. Killers can activate that add-on whenever they want – the next hit will insta-down the survivor.

    What do you guys think?

    Umm maybe better, you get 3 skillcheck for activate the instaheal -_-?

  • fluffybunnyfluffybunny Member Posts: 2,161

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Marvett said:
    What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
    is this a bait or..?!

    The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.

    If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.

    Weren't you the one asking if survivor mains play killer? I suppose I have the question of if you're one of those killer mains who don't play survivor. You seem to be lacking in knowledge on how all this works. Have you played survivor?

    You need to waste BP on insta-heals. The kind to get someone off the ground is at the same rank of being able to kill everyone with your hand. The kind to heal one state is a level below, but it costs a lot to make your way through the bloodweb just to get an item survivors won't keep. You're likely to not even get it on the first level 50 you have to pass and mind you, killers get twice the bloodpoints and have an easier time getting their bbq stacks than survivor's wasted slot of wglf. If we aren't arguing BP, we can also argue timing. You need to actually be in a good spot, otherwise the item will be wasted or go unused. It's barely a "freebie" as it costs quite a bit and you need to time it well, as well as be in the right spot.

    I'm guessing by your avatar, you're a huntress main. Even if you aren't, this still stands. The huntress has an add-on that gives her one-down potential from far away. What you're suggesting would be like saying the huntress should have a cool-down on her one down. By your logic, that would be fair. Wait a good 30 seconds, that way it isn't a "freebie." Perhaps we could even venture to say a missed hit will count towards that 30 seconds. Wouldn't want to give anyone "freebies," after all.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @fluffybunny said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Marvett said:
    What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
    is this a bait or..?!

    The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.

    If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.

    Weren't you the one asking if survivor mains play killer? I suppose I have the question of if you're one of those killer mains who don't play survivor. You seem to be lacking in knowledge on how all this works. Have you played survivor?

    Wrong. I'm a survivor main.
    And now? You realize a discussion doesn't work by just throwing random assumptions around? On top, it's really impolite. Do you think people will still be respectful towards you when you behave like that?

    I have also explained multiple times why spending bloodpoints is not a downside gameplay-wise. I also explained why insta-heals are a freebie while a killer still needs skill to land insta-downs. I even explained it with the insta-hatchet example. Just scroll up.

    If you still have questions after reading the thread, I'll explain what is unclear to you.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @Arroz said:

    @NoShinyPony said:
    While being in a chase, survivors can use an insta-heal to heal in front of the killer and take 1 more hit. This effect doesn't have a downside at the moment, but I think high rewards should also come with a risk.

    I have two different suggestions to make the insta-heal add-ons more balanced.

    Version 1:
    The survivor who got healed with an insta-heal suffers from the exposed status effect for 30 seconds.

    Version 2:
    Keep the current insta-heal and give killers a similar add-on for one-time-use. Killers can activate that add-on whenever they want – the next hit will insta-down the survivor.

    What do you guys think?

    Umm maybe better, you get 3 skillcheck for activate the instaheal -_-?

    Good idea, that would also be an alternative. That way, the instaheal could not be used while being in a chase.
    And that's the major problem with insta-heals: At the moment they are used during a chase/in front of the killer.

  • fluffybunnyfluffybunny Member Posts: 2,161

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @fluffybunny said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Marvett said:
    What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
    is this a bait or..?!

    The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.

    If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.

    Weren't you the one asking if survivor mains play killer? I suppose I have the question of if you're one of those killer mains who don't play survivor. You seem to be lacking in knowledge on how all this works. Have you played survivor?

    Wrong. I'm a survivor main.
    And now? You realize a discussion doesn't work by just throwing random assumptions around? On top, it's really impolite. Do you think people will still be respectful towards you when you behave like that?

    I have also explained multiple times why spending bloodpoints is not a downside gameplay-wise. I also explained why insta-heals are a freebie while a killer still needs skill to land insta-downs. I even explained it with the insta-hatchet example. Just scroll up.

    If you still have questions after reading the thread, I'll explain what is unclear to you.

    I apologize for triggering you, though it wasn't based on nothing and therefore not an assumption, but an observation and a question. It isn't wise to shoot down conversation, though, and my point still stands. I don't know about you, but I don't want to waste bloodpoints on another pointless item, considering how many characters I have. If the person healed someone from the ground, that's likely a free down. If the person healed themself, that's a wasted item and if they did it at a poor time, free hit. If you're really that afraid of an insta-heal, just bring franky's. It's a pretty nice counter.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @fluffybunny said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @fluffybunny said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Marvett said:
    What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
    is this a bait or..?!

    The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.

    If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.

    Weren't you the one asking if survivor mains play killer? I suppose I have the question of if you're one of those killer mains who don't play survivor. You seem to be lacking in knowledge on how all this works. Have you played survivor?

    Wrong. I'm a survivor main.
    And now? You realize a discussion doesn't work by just throwing random assumptions around? On top, it's really impolite. Do you think people will still be respectful towards you when you behave like that?

    I have also explained multiple times why spending bloodpoints is not a downside gameplay-wise. I also explained why insta-heals are a freebie while a killer still needs skill to land insta-downs. I even explained it with the insta-hatchet example. Just scroll up.

    If you still have questions after reading the thread, I'll explain what is unclear to you.

    I apologize for triggering you, though it wasn't based on nothing and therefore not an assumption, but an observation and a question. It isn't wise to shoot down conversation, though, and my point still stands. I don't know about you, but I don't want to waste bloodpoints on another pointless item, considering how many characters I have. If the person healed someone from the ground, that's likely a free down. If the person healed themself, that's a wasted item and if they did it at a poor time, free hit. If you're really that afraid of an insta-heal, just bring franky's. It's a pretty nice counter.

    You did not trigger me. I pointed out how you were impolite, wrong in your observations and wrong in your assumptions.

    I did not shoot down the conversation, either. I replied to everything you mentioned in other posts already and therefore asked you to read the thread first. If you can't even put that low amount of effort into a discussion, then that's just how it is.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    Literally just make it a heal over time.

    Not useless in a chase but still gives a chance to be stopped by the killer

    Not useless outside of a chase as you can do other things in the mean time

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:
    Literally just make it a heal over time.

    Not useless in a chase but still gives a chance to be stopped by the killer

    Not useless outside of a chase as you can do other things in the mean time

    Yes, that could also work. :)

  • powerbatspowerbats Member Posts: 7,071

    Ok so remove Billy and Bubba's insta downs, remove all Mori's except Yellow, remove Iridescent Hatchets, and Pinky's Finger, remove Myers Evil III. Now does that sound like a fair trade to deal with the insta heals because if so I'm sure survivors would agree to it.

    The better way to handle them is to make them have a prep time ie they take a few seconds to administer so 2 seconds of healing for the Sytpic agent and 5 seconds for the Syringe.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @powerbats said:
    Ok so remove Billy and Bubba's insta downs, remove all Mori's except Yellow, remove Iridescent Hatchets, and Pinky's Finger, remove Myers Evil III. Now does that sound like a fair trade to deal with the insta heals because if so I'm sure survivors would agree to it.

    All the killer downs require skill, the insta-heals require a click. The non-existing killer's equivalent to an insta-heal would be the killer making a click and the survivor just losing one or two health states. If the killers could get such an add-on, survivors could keep the insta-heals.

    However, the insta-heals do not need to be removed entirely, they just need a rework. There are already some good suggestions in this thread here.

  • powerbatspowerbats Member Posts: 7,071

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @powerbats said:
    Ok so remove Billy and Bubba's insta downs, remove all Mori's except Yellow, remove Iridescent Hatchets, and Pinky's Finger, remove Myers Evil III. Now does that sound like a fair trade to deal with the insta heals because if so I'm sure survivors would agree to it.

    All the killer downs require skill, the insta-heals require a click. The non-existing killer's equivalent to an insta-heal would be the killer making a click and the survivor just losing one or two health states. If the killers could get such an add-on, survivors could keep the insta-heals.

    However, the insta-heals do not need to be removed entirely, they just need a rework. There are already some good suggestions in this thread here.

    Actually that's incorrect, it takes no skill to charge across the map and steer into a survivor or follow behind them and cheese with Billy's saw.

    Pinky's finger just follow them and whammo instant exposed, Huntress follow behind them instant down, Billy same. There's absolutely no skill involved in simply following behind someone with an insta down.

    But like i said you could have a timer required since in real life if you're trying to administer something along those lines there's prep time.

    That'dd keep people from simply dropping a pallet and insta healing to full similar to how they did it before with pause at pallet heal a few clicks etc.

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 10,208

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.

    I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.

    In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?

    Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.

    First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.

    As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.

    It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.

    "You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.

    Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.

    Make a thread about nerfing Mori's then. I'm certainly up for the idea if you have something specific in mind

    Well 4 insta heals are way more powerful than a mori, so.....

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    @Master said:

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.

    I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.

    In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?

    Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.

    First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.

    As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.

    It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.

    "You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.

    Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.

    Make a thread about nerfing Mori's then. I'm certainly up for the idea if you have something specific in mind

    Well 4 insta heals are way more powerful than a mori, so.....

    so...? Finish your sentence please

  • fluffybunnyfluffybunny Member Posts: 2,161

    @Master said:

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.

    I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.

    In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?

    Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.

    First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.

    As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.

    It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.

    "You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.

    Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.

    Make a thread about nerfing Mori's then. I'm certainly up for the idea if you have something specific in mind

    Well 4 insta heals are way more powerful than a mori, so.....

    I don't think those are actually more powerful than a mori, unless we're talking about the green sort specifically, which we wouldn't be. If everyone had a syringe, that would be 4 extra lives, while a mori would reduce 4 extra lives. Mind you, both are ultra rare and one side requires 4 to have the same affect. Additionally, moris can be done wherever and if you're getting up someone from the ground, you're often exchanging a health state for that. You also need to be in the right place at the right time. A person with a syringe being miles away from the downed person doesn't help even remotely. When you're chasing someone with a mori, you're often right on them.

  • fluffybunnyfluffybunny Member Posts: 2,161

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:
    Literally just make it a heal over time.

    Not useless in a chase but still gives a chance to be stopped by the killer

    Not useless outside of a chase as you can do other things in the mean time

    Oooo, I like this idea.

  • NuclearBurrito2NuclearBurrito2 Member Posts: 262

    @fluffybunny said:

    @Master said:

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.

    I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.

    In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?

    Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.

    First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.

    As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.

    It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.

    "You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.

    Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.

    Make a thread about nerfing Mori's then. I'm certainly up for the idea if you have something specific in mind

    Well 4 insta heals are way more powerful than a mori, so.....

    I don't think those are actually more powerful than a mori, unless we're talking about the green sort specifically, which we wouldn't be. If everyone had a syringe, that would be 4 extra lives, while a mori would reduce 4 extra lives. Mind you, both are ultra rare and one side requires 4 to have the same affect. Additionally, moris can be done wherever and if you're getting up someone from the ground, you're often exchanging a health state for that. You also need to be in the right place at the right time. A person with a syringe being miles away from the downed person doesn't help even remotely. When you're chasing someone with a mori, you're often right on them.

    A green Mori reduces 4 lives.

    An ebony mori reduces 16 lives

    Just saying

  • fluffybunnyfluffybunny Member Posts: 2,161

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @fluffybunny said:

    @Master said:

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.

    I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.

    In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?

    Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.

    First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.

    As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.

    It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.

    "You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.

    Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.

    Make a thread about nerfing Mori's then. I'm certainly up for the idea if you have something specific in mind

    Well 4 insta heals are way more powerful than a mori, so.....

    I don't think those are actually more powerful than a mori, unless we're talking about the green sort specifically, which we wouldn't be. If everyone had a syringe, that would be 4 extra lives, while a mori would reduce 4 extra lives. Mind you, both are ultra rare and one side requires 4 to have the same affect. Additionally, moris can be done wherever and if you're getting up someone from the ground, you're often exchanging a health state for that. You also need to be in the right place at the right time. A person with a syringe being miles away from the downed person doesn't help even remotely. When you're chasing someone with a mori, you're often right on them.

    A green Mori reduces 4 lives.

    An ebony mori reduces 16 lives

    Just saying

    I was counting the mori itself as a "hook" since you have to be caught again after being unhooked and it takes time to go through the animation, which some takes a bit (looking at you, Clown).

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @fluffybunny said:

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @fluffybunny said:

    @Master said:

    @NuclearBurrito2 said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Ihatelife said:
    Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.

    I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.

    In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?

    Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.

    First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.

    As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.

    It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.

    "You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.

    Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.

    Make a thread about nerfing Mori's then. I'm certainly up for the idea if you have something specific in mind

    Well 4 insta heals are way more powerful than a mori, so.....

    I don't think those are actually more powerful than a mori, unless we're talking about the green sort specifically, which we wouldn't be. If everyone had a syringe, that would be 4 extra lives, while a mori would reduce 4 extra lives. Mind you, both are ultra rare and one side requires 4 to have the same affect. Additionally, moris can be done wherever and if you're getting up someone from the ground, you're often exchanging a health state for that. You also need to be in the right place at the right time. A person with a syringe being miles away from the downed person doesn't help even remotely. When you're chasing someone with a mori, you're often right on them.

    A green Mori reduces 4 lives.

    An ebony mori reduces 16 lives

    Just saying

    I was counting the mori itself as a "hook" since you have to be caught again after being unhooked and it takes time to go through the animation, which some takes a bit (looking at you, Clown).

    Let me explain why 4 insta-heals are more powerful than a mori if you don't see it:
    The insta-heals delay the point of the survivors getting hooked the first time or (after they have been on the first hook) getting downed again. If the survivors play well, the killer has to go through 4 insta-heals before the first surv could get moried.

    That consumes a lot of the killer's time. Meanwhile, the gens have been done. A mori is only powerful if the survivors give the killer enough time to use it.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 3,447

    @powerbats said:

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @powerbats said:
    Ok so remove Billy and Bubba's insta downs, remove all Mori's except Yellow, remove Iridescent Hatchets, and Pinky's Finger, remove Myers Evil III. Now does that sound like a fair trade to deal with the insta heals because if so I'm sure survivors would agree to it.

    All the killer downs require skill, the insta-heals require a click. The non-existing killer's equivalent to an insta-heal would be the killer making a click and the survivor just losing one or two health states. If the killers could get such an add-on, survivors could keep the insta-heals.

    However, the insta-heals do not need to be removed entirely, they just need a rework. There are already some good suggestions in this thread here.

    Actually that's incorrect, it takes no skill to charge across the map and steer into a survivor

    You are incorrect, sorry. What you describe here is not a demonstration of the Billy player's skill but a lack of the survivor's skill. However, it is skill-related since it comes down to the survivor not having enough skill.

    For all the other examples you brought up: Of course it comes down to skill. Billy, Leatherface, Huntress, Clown, Michael - all the killers with insta-downs are still loopable and the survivor can evade getting hit. If the survivor gets hit, it's either because of the killer's skill or because of the survivor's lack of skill.

    With insta-heals, on the other hand, there really is no skill involved.

    I get that it's great for some survivors to have such an amazing freebie and of course they don't want to lose it, but it would be more honest if they said "We feel killers are strong and that add-on helps win a game we could not win otherwise" instead of denying that insta-heals are freebies.

  • yeetyeet Member Posts: 1,625

    people trying to claim losing a brown medkit is a downside is laughable

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