Let's try this again and start over. I think we've both become to invested and heated, yeah?
It's BHVR, easier for them to take the Billy and Freddy route than try to fix her like Doc
Her range add ons could use a pass but overall her power is fine. It's the range which makes her crazy strong. All of her other add ons are literally jokes.
Well guess it’s time to nerf Freddy again!
Even if you can successfully outplay a nurse the punishment on her end is minimal and she can make up for it easy with her snowball potential and quick downs. You can come at me and say I need to “get gud” all you want but that doesn’t change the fact that nurse at her core is an unbalanced design regardless of how many bandaids they put on such as slower movement speed or a cooldown
How can we call Oni, a Killer who has to be an M1 killer to charge and earn his power balanced while nurse gets a stronger power from the start balanced too? That literally makes no sense
I'll repost the reply that you ignored last thread:
I'm not suggesting making all her blink attacks special just the ones on the 2nd blink or later. If you're a good enough Nurse to get the job done in 1 blink you can still get Starstruck value.
Excepting Blight you cannot use Wraith, Onryo, or Clown as examples to defend Nurse having all her blink attacks count as basic attacks. You are comparing the strongest killer in the game to 3 of its weakest. Those killers aren't even B tier. Also if a Clown hits a survivor with a bottle it does count as a special attack, even though it does nothing without Pinky Finger.
As for falling pallets interrupting blinks, how does it already happen? The only case I know of is if the Nurse blinks into where the pallet can be dropped and the survivor drops the pallet once she has actually completed her blink. It's about 50/50 whether or not the survivor gets away without getting hit, the window of opportunity is narrow. I think if falling pallets actually intercepted a Nurse mid-blink then she wouldn't be able to practically ignore pallets as she does now. If a survivor was camping a pallet she could still get the hit by blinking to one side of the pallet and dodging the stun zone.
It does exactly what I think it does. I don't think it would be a net buff or nerf to Nurse really. Sometimes she would be stunned for longer, like in cases where a survivor waits almost until the fatigue is over, and sometimes she would have her fatigue cut short, like if she used 3 blinks and was running Enduring. It would give her reason to run Enduring and it could be fun. Any camera bugs should hopefully be fixed.
The Nurse will change because the community will not quiet down about Nurse until she see some nerfs. My demands are the most reasonable of them all. Others are outright calling for harsh reworks or straight up "delete her from the game REEEEEEEE!"
It would be much better if the Nurse mains here could listen to reason and at least try to bargain in good faith, but every single one of you is "Nurse is fine," "Nurse is balanced" and quote 6 month old data from before the major Nurse bug removal and a major game balance rework and say "Nurse has the lowest kill rate." No one can take you seriously.
Yeah, I'm up for that. My stance is the available proof of good players versus equally good Nurses comes out to be roughly even, both in ability to be chased and the overall game itself (with the exception of things like one-sided maps, people not trying, meme builds. etc).
I think range add-ons and the third blink add-on are fundamentally problematic because they remove or reduce the counterplay available, while I think recharge add-ons are fine or even necessary (depending on the level of play) - not that it's necessary for most levels of play, mostly just the much higher ends. Recharge is less downtime, but doesn't alter the counterplay to any given blink trade attempt itself the way range or the third blink being available does, and base kit recharge time is excruciating against very very good players.
I am of this stance because for both competitive and non-competitive, there is ample evidence that shows said gameplay of those levels of players playing against one another. Furthermore, the amount of extremely good players of anything in any game is a quite small percentage of the player base. The odds an average player will have to even face them in the first place is low, and even if they do, that's on matchmaking and not on balance. Average/okay Nurses will make plenty of mistakes and unsuccessful reads, much the way that average/okay survivors will do the same.
Furthermore, while competitive's results aren't directly relevant to regular DBD, it can still be learned from to see how players at the highest levels of gameplay handle every and any kind of situation. For instance, how one handles chases as or against a given killer (eg, Nurse). And it shows results at the uppermost levels of play, for anyone curious about that. Which in turn would disprove allegations such as "god (insert) is uncounterable and a free win every game", given that very much does not hold out if they actually are matched against equally "god"-like players. Again, the majority of people do not have to worry about this level of play, but even besides results, the gameplay habits and skills can be learned from.
Additionally, confirmation bias is an unavoidable aspect, and most people will not remember wins or average matches to the same extent they remember losses. Furthermore, because she is the best killer in the game, as people get better, it will become more common to face her, which in turn means also having to improve against them to keep up.
Also, fundamentally, I am of the stance she has the best-designed power in the game, precisely because she can ignore physical barriers. It does not matter what tile or location you are at. She cannot brute force a hit the way a standard M1 115% can by walking up to you will eventually do (which is completely unavoidable at dead zones without something like Sprint Burst). She also cannot auto-lose a chase because of any given map design. She must use her power and win at a mindgame to land a hit.
For example, many killers just have areas where their powers do not work well, and they usually must chase as a regular walking 110% or 115%, which is quite disadvantageous, and in stronger tiles, that is usually a point to drop the chase outright as it will not be worth the time it takes to even get a result. Regardless of how much maps are redesigned, this will always be the case because of the variety. However, while additional LoS breakers do make it more challenging, by winning a successful mindgame, she can still play these tiles as well.
Because of this, it becomes almost a virtue in map design as well in some aspects. BHVR does not have to worry about map designs making her busted (other than extremely small map sizes), because tiles do not affect her beyond LoS barriers in the first place. This cannot be said about basically any other killer in this game.
Regarding her power being a basic M1 and thus being able to use Exposed, I don't consider this an issue. Like stated before, mindgaming is built in as counterplay into her kit, and counterplay is built into each individual perk as well that grants Exposed. For example, Starstruck is countered by either already being injured, staying split up from survivors (which would also avoid Infectious Fright), or leaving the area someone goes down by. Yes, it's an issue on small maps, but that is because those maps are too small, not the perk or Nurse itself.
Regarding the myth that she holds back balance or perks, it's quite simple to disprove. BHVR has continually made changes to buff perks or released new perks that are quite amazing on her, which they have never taken issue with. Furthermore, some of the basekit changes such as the survivors running for less time after a hit or the longer gens are also an indirect buff to her. I have no recollection of any such explicit statement from BHVR indicating the opposite.
Regarding how she outperforms every other killer with fairly low downtime compared to them, I am of the mindset people are looking at it the wrong way around. For weaker killers, a single lost trade means they can quite easily lose 20-30+ seconds. That is not sustainable or good design, because that is essentially a lost chase immediately in time-efficiency against better players. Weaker killers also make trades happen much less often because of how long it takes for them to even get in a situation to get a hit each time. Comparatively, Nurse frequently forces trades, and thus constant adaptation and mindgaming. Did you successfully win this trade? Then you bought yourself a modicum of time, and then you will need to do that again. The amount of downtime is much more sustainable design, and it also doesn't go ridiculously long lengths where there cannot be an attempt to land a hit at all that the survivor essentially knows they are completely safe for.
Also, another point is that people underestimate her said downtime. After 2 blinks, if she swings and a whiff, she fatigues for 3.5 seconds. If she doesn't swing, she fatigues for 2.5 seconds (a swing adds +1 regardless of miss or hit). During fatigue, she moves at 0.96m/s. This means that she moves 3.36m in 3.5s or 2.4m in 2.5s, in which time a survivor would run 14m or 10m respectively. Afterwards, she must spend another 2.5 or 3.5 seconds recharging the second blink by default. (3s per token) During that time, she moves at 3.85m/s, and thus would move 9.625m or 13.475m in which time the survivor would run 10m or 14m respectively again. Now both blinks are back,and the survivor is 24m away from the starting location while the Nurse is 12.985m or 15.875m away. While charging a blink, Nurse walks at 2.89m/s, and charging a maximum distance blink takes 2 seconds, which means the Nurse walks 5.78m during that time and the survivor runs 8m during that time, increasing the gap to 13.235m apart or 10.345m apart. In the 1.5s of travel time it takes, the survivor can go up to 6m while the Nurse can go up to 20m. Landing a blink hit with the first hit is extremely unlikely outside of either an amazing read, a survivor misplay, or being trapped into a corner (which is one or both of the previous). The second blink is up to roughly 1.2s or so of charge time, and then up to roughly 1s or so of travel time depending on charge amount. This is where she can attempt to make a hit again or fatigue again. Thus, between the start and this, the following amount of time has passed: 6s to recharge + 2s to charge + 1.5s to travel + [minor to ~1.2s] to charge again + [minor to ~1s] to travel again = A total of 9.5+(minor to ~2.2s) for a total of around 10.5-11.7 seconds. Basically, every won trade will buy around that much time on average.
Regarding the point of her mindgames being difficult, that is the point. Both sides must adapt to the other on the fly based off how the players are reacting and responding to given tools. For instance, if a survivor looks back, that could either be a genuine look back to gauge when to double back, or a bait to fake out the Nurse while running forward. So the Nurse attempts to make a decision based on how the survivor plays when they do that. But if it's inconsistent, it will only be a prediction at best. Likewise in reverse, if the survivor notices the Nurse is looking at a specific location, it might mean that's where they are planning to blink, or a fake to make the survivor think that before flicking. So they judge based off how the Nurse tends to play. Whether they tend to blink short or long on first, how they play around any given tile or location/LoS barrier, etc. Which is what the examples I had shown prove, that said good players understand how to adapt, and prove it is possible. Similarly, the issue at lower levels of play is (1) lack of solo queue communication ability and (2) lack of knowledge both as and against a Nurse.
Regarding the point of "blink to last seen and then readjust", the issue is combined with the above, that is only the most-reliable option. And by this, I mean comparatively so, compared to predicting. However, that does not mean it actually IS reliable in those options. Predictive is a complete guess of where they may go through somewhere you cannot see, which obviously carries a great deal of risk. However, all it takes for an area or a survivor play to throw a wrench into this strategy is for them to cut off LoS somewhere in the time it takes for the Nurse to reach the corner and then make another judgment, either there's another LoS barrier cutting off vision again, or enough distance that the Nurse cannot reach them either way if they attempt to play safely and not predicting. For example, like said before, Nurse has 2s of charge during which she goes 5.78m and the survivor goes 8m, and then 1.5s where she can go up to 20m while survivor goes up to 6m. Something important to note here is it does not matter if the Nurse manually shortens the blink by dragging the mouse down. The blink travel time will always go off whatever the charge amount is. The survivor leaves Nurse's vision prior to or during the charge (which is quite possible at any modicum of distance there will usually be due to Nurse's burst-style of moving during any downtime). For example, running towards Shack. If the survivor simply continues to run and does not attempt to delay any bit, then in the time Nurse reaches the corner, the survivor can make it anywhere from 6-14m away from the given location. Even if Nurse attempts to charge and go for a second blink, she will not land it unless she tries to predictively go through the walls, at which point a double back that beats that prediction will again, evade her. For reference, because of the up to ~minor-1.2s charge time + 0.25-1s travel time of the second blink (minimum blink distance is 1.5m at 6m/s for 0.25s travel, chain blink max distance is 12m at ~roughly 10 or so m/s), as long as the survivor is only not within roughly 6-8m, it denies an extremely small quick follow-up attempt, and longer charges will give even more time to escape said 12m or again avoid wherever she's trying to go.
Hopefully they are looking into a rework for her or something. I would guess if they are (hopefully) working on one, it probably won't be implemented till next year in all honesty.
Doesn't need 8K hours. I've versed survivors with 3k hours that had no clue, and I've versed some with 600 hours that were playing well. As I've befriended her, I've learned one of these "low hours" survivors that were trouble played the Nurse regularly so they had a good feel of my next moves. Not forever of course, but long enough to be troublesome.
I think only her add ons need changing but leave her base alone. Some survivors just need to learn to break that line of sight.
Well, first off, I believe you've made a fairly interesting leap in judgement. The average Survivor isn't very good and you have assumed that means that the average Nurse player, likewise, is around the same skill level. This is a fairly logical assumption, however, the truth is not so black and white.
As someone who has played a lot of Survivor recently but has played mostly Killer in the past, the average Survivor is hardly able to play around M1 Killers like Myers or Trapper, much less someone like Nurse. Most players understand pallet looping, or window looping but few understand how to mindgame, how to chain tiles, LoS blockers, ect ect. It's why we saw the insanely long 4K streaks in the past, for good players, the game just isn't that challenging. The average player just isn't very good. Likewise, Nurse has a bit of a reputation. She's commonly considered one of the hardest Killers to learn and is very punishing to pick up, whether or not that's true is irrelevant. It deters many players from playing her until they've mastered many other Killers. This puts their skill (game knowledge, map knowledge, mechanical knowledge, ect) at a much higher point than the average Survivor player that they will be likely to match against. These are the most common Nurse players you will find in average MMR.
For example, their builds will usually look something like this:
This is what the average player cannot deal with. While the Nurse may be able to be looped for a reasonable amount of time, their perks will help carry them over that shortcoming. These average Nurse's do not have god Blinks. They can be juked and they can absolutely be beaten and they know that. However, the Survivors that they play against do not have the skillset to counter her build, her add-ons, her power and the (generally) more experienced player all at once.
High MMR Nurses will, generally, not stack slowdowns. The Survivors they are going against have both the experience and the toolset to be able to play well against her. The players are generally of equal experience and many high MMR SWF's can deal with the best Nurse's fairly well.
My point is that Nurse is sort of the Killer SWF. For many experienced players, it's perfectly counterable. They might be able to bring certain busted combo's, but other than that, nothing too special. However, not everyone is so experienced and those average players will suffer from a serious power gap.
Every Nurse player that I've spoken to (after our match) has been an insufferable dick to me and to my teammates and since I'm not an amazing Survivor, I don't find them much.
Not much of an opportunity to practice, I'm afraid. I'm sure there must be more nice Nurses like you, but I must just be unlucky.
If you don’t know the game as well as the Nurse player, yes, you deserve to lose every time.
Quite honestly, I shouldn't be playing against comp Nurses in the first place, thank you very much.
Right, but my point is that people seem to think that they should be able to win against people who are better than them. If the Nurse player makes better reads, she should win. There are mountains of evidence that show Nurse being juked/losing the match.
Why should we be matched with players with more hours in Nurse than we have in DBD total?
Like, a Bill in our match had 800 hours and the Nurse we played against said (on stream) that they had about 4K hours in Nurse. How are we possibly supposed to do well there?
That’s a matchmaking issue. It doesn’t mean that Nurse should be nerfed.
Thanks for your thought-out response, however I disagree on some of the conclusions. Learning Nurse takes more to play at a minimum level than playing survivor at a minimum level is something I agree completely on, and thus complacency is punished hard. Learning how to deal with standard M1 at average level is enough for most to not need to even try to improve further, which leads to issues like these where people just flat out don't know how to play against more complex killers (not even just Nurse). I agree that average players can struggle at playing against even weaker killers, and particularly solo queue. I think the better decision to go about this would be instead to better the tutorial, and perhaps include things like in-game guides for tips on how to play as and against killers, so there is a better base line of knowledge to learn from for both sides. For example, a looping guide where a survivor practices the correct direction to run a certain tile, and then they're tested in a map without those guides to see if they pick the correct decisions.
Furthermore, I think it's extremely crucial that BHVR closes the gap between solo and SWF as much as possible, not only because of Nurse, but because of so many different issues that is caused from this division. Some killers are kept weak on purpose to not have a power too oppressive for solo despite being weak versus good coordination, some perks or status effects are only really relevant for solo, so on and so forth. By closing this gap as much as possible, it allows BHVR to balance around one single type instead of two distinctly different types of survivor gameplay. I've made suggestions regarding this before, but I think preset message ping wheels that allow for communications of things like "Killer on me"/"Camping"/etc etc as needed would help tremendously in that regard (with minor cooldown to prevent ping spam/ability to mute a specific survivor's pings if they're clearly trolling for example).
I do not think a knowledge gap should be addressed by direct gameplay changes, but rather close said knowledge gap.
And will this matchmaking issue be fixed?
It's not a fixable matchmaking issue in any game by nature of how it works. In basically any versus matchmaking game ever, the amount of extremely ridiculously good players is very, very small. The odds 5 players are on in DBD all at the same level of skill and in the 4:1 ratio in the same region needed is even smaller. The other option is their queues take literally hours. But it's also not a common issue either, and one that can be bridged with learning more/making it easier to learn by offering guides and tips and whatnot better.
I definitely agree about a better tutorial. Your idea sounds absolutely wonderful.
My point was that the average Nurse is much more experienced (and has more knowledge) than the average Survivor. This, coupled with some very oppressive combo's and a bad matchmaker, make Nurse a complete nightmare everywhere except for the lower and higher levels of play.
I'm not asking for a 8K Nurse player to only play against other 8K hour players, that would be unrealistic, as we both know.
I am asking for them not to be given a relatively new player that handicaps the Survivor team in a match that was already going to be difficult.
I can completely agree with all of this. To be honest, I think slowdown as a whole is a bandaid to what is the true core issue - map and tile design. If big maps were scaled down and tiny maps were scaled up, and tile spawn logic was adjusted to not make super giant dead zones/super giant busted zones, that would in of itself already solve pretty much a huge amount of issues in my opinion. Means chases would be shorter, getting across the map doesn't take an eternity, and by extension, gens are much more manageable, which in turn means things like tunneling/camping could then be nerfed somewhat, because a killer would become way less reliant on ever needing to use those strategies in the first place. The issue is doing all of this would be an absolutely staggering amount of work that would take a huge amount of time and effort. I honestly think the 90s gen change was the wrong way to go about it. I think base regression should be 0.5 instead of the current 0.25, and I think all regression perks should be drastically nerfed and made to only fill specific niches. For example, Pain Resonance lets you know the most progressed gen. Then, base regression is better so just doing chases and whatnot is enough, and "regression" perks only become niche-fulfillment perks.
I agree, I'd love to see more adjustments to the matchmaking system where possible.
I'm starting to think that survivors wont stop asking for nurse nerfs until she's loopable
Maybe now that even prominent streamers are complaining about her, they'll change her eventually. She's already getting her add-ons nerfed.
I'm not "nice" by a long shot. It depends on what I have in front of me. But that hasn't anything to do with this. In essence what I mean is that playing a Nurse is usually a big step to verse her. I believe you have friends (or followers?) and you could play all together to try her (or any killer really). When I used to SWF, my friends trained against me and it was enough for most Nurses (and I was half as experienced as I am now)
Those games were before nurse buff. 90s gens, dh and ds nerf all help her and she didn't need that so only way to compensate that is to nerf her. Range add ons makes nurse easier to use so I think they should kept them and she should be changed more like oni. If she is fine oni should be changed to like her and start with his power.
######### no, and ######### oni lol. You know how laughably painful it is to have to go somewhere to get your power ? Hell na
I don't know why you think I'm a fan of the 90s gens. I explicitly said I'm not a fan of it.
DH is literally stronger against her than before. The reason it was good was the i-frames, which is Endurance instead now which means a successful use gives even more distance.
DS shouldn't have gone down to 3 seconds, it should've stayed at 5s.
Range add-ons and three blinks are busted and should both be reworked.
Oni has instadowns on his power by default, stop pretending like they're even remotely comparable.
Who knows. Either way, it’s not a valid reason to nerf her. Survivor is a team game, which means you can lose due to bad teammates. Deal with it