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nemesis hindered is awful now

_kostas_pap_207_kostas_pap_207 Member Posts: 453
edited September 12 in Feedback and Suggestions

I think no one notices the hundred that you get when the nemesis infects you with his tentacle because it lasts 0.5 or even 0.25 seconds. EVEN LESS THAN DEAD HARD

hindred is already kinda bad. Because sometimes the nerf is small like 5 % or sth and other times like 7 or even 10

In nemesis case it's not even possible to understand

They just putted it there just to say . Haha we puted this mechanic to this killer how cool is that #########.

Wow

Remove it or make it longer

Like who are you trying to fool bhvr

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Comments

  • CorruptedSpecimenCorruptedSpecimen Member Posts: 3
    edited September 12
  • FeryGENFeryGEN Member Posts: 498

    Oh my god dude, You are probably the only one on the forum who thought about this perk, but I will tell you why, because you just read the topic, but did not read the description.

    I think that Nemesis should have the power of the addon (Licker Tongue) in basekit, and on the addon either add more slowdown for the non-infected, or rework it and make it break generators with a tentacle by 3.5% and call zombies to this generator. Killer addons that somehow affect generators and pallets have always been more popular, if only because it's interesting.

  • XordXord Member Posts: 455

    I have to inform you that the author was talking about the killer and not the perk and you must feel very embarassed now that everyone saw you make that mistake.

  • I wasn't aware that it was a joke, and was only trying to clear up a misunderstanding

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,620

    and you have no sense of humour, I guess you belong to the minority that didnt get that

    But anyway I think the post is a trolling attempt. Why would you want hindered to get nerfed. Free distance for what? Tentacle hits are already lower cooldown than regular M1 hits, kinda like hatchets

  • FeryGENFeryGEN Member Posts: 498

    Joke, hohoho, I would understand that this is a joke, if it was a reference to at least some streamer, jokes should be in obvious things or funny

    Then I would like to make the addon more interesting, not hindered, but interesting.

    Just Nemesis main meeting what kind of survivors they usually meet?

    1. Who are thrown pre-drop

    2. Who use zombies to get infected and run away on boost

    Therefore, a solution is needed, although so that zombies do not give speed boost when infected.

  • CybilCybil Member Posts: 1,125

    Sorry about your thread, OP. Better luck next time I suppose.

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,992

    The sad part is, he posts the same lame thing in every single thread about Nemesis - tHe KiLlEr. Derails from any meaningful discussion.

  • _kostas_pap_207_kostas_pap_207 Member Posts: 453

    That's what I meant. The killer nemesis needs to have the hindred effect longer

  • MalkhrimMalkhrim Member Posts: 642

    Not to mention Licker's Tongue, the ONLY add-on that actually makes his tentacle lash stronger... only increases it by 0.2 seconds. Like, wow, a fifth of a second more of a hindered effect, who cares. It manages to be one of his worst add-ons even though almost all of them are bad.


    By the way, his Hindered Effect is not THAT small. According to the Wiki, 20%. The problem is, they still get a speed boost, so all the hindered effect does is making a survivor run for either 130% (if Hindered is additive) or 120% (if it's multiplicative) movement speed for 0,25 seconds. So yeah, it makes a laughably small difference.

  • Devil_hit11Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 2,657

    yeah they need to buff to 30% for 1.8 seconds. Currently I don't even bother to hit survivors with his tentacle after hitting tier 2 because of speed boosts and extra-health states.

  • R1ch4rd_N1x0nR1ch4rd_N1x0n Member Posts: 1,677

    Actually I'm amused because I made this joke on purpose.

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,620

    I think it will be 120% because it is like that in almost every case.

    120% movement speed for 0.25s gets you 1.2m away. add 0.2s of 100% speed is another 0,8m which is 2m total distance for a normal tentacle strike hit.

    Using the addon will get you 2.16m away in 0.45s so an additional 0.16m which is truly a really minor effect. But the hindered effect itself steals the survivor 0.3m and with the addon steals 0.54m compared to a normal hit without hindered, and don't forget that Nemesis has half a second less cooldown after a tentacle hit compared to a normal hit. That adds up, you can't just look at the pure numbers of the hindered effect only. It is not much, but it is not nothing either

  • jesterkindjesterkind Member Posts: 4,208

    I mean, I'm pretty sure it's there to make the speed boost the survivor gets after being hit less than the one they get from a basic attack, right?

    It's not there just to be there, it's there to partially offset an inherent weakness to the infection mechanic. I have no idea how useful it is at that, perhaps it could stand to be increased, but I think it's a little hyperbolic to claim it's useless because it doesn't give the same kind of value as other Hindered sources.

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,620
    1. I think it was obvious (I even would say the "period" lol "period" notation were intended)
    2. why th does it need a streamer reference? is DBD only related to streamers?

    not sure what your list is explaining. what does predropping has to do with the hindered effect? and I think survivors granting free infection without you being slowed for using your power is a benefit for the killer, unless he has an exposed effect active. The only thing where it really hurts is when you are still in tier 1

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,143

    The Nemesis Licker Tongue addon should impose a 2% speed penalty until you are "not blue" anymore.

    Likewise the NE-a Parasite should make you oblivious until cured.


    Nemesis was delivered in a state where he would never really be viable vs good players because his anti loop requires you to hit someone three times. If they gave him a complete rework of his addons, fixed the zombie AI and changed his whip then he might be "ok".


    Infection not giving a speed boost would help.

    Letting Nemesis always be able to break pallets with his whip would help

    Zombies giving Nemesis infection progress would help.

    Letting Nemesis give infection & injury with tier 3 whip would also make perfect sense as he has to build up to that point.

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,620

    THis already might already be busted because you have, unlike Healing sprays with Wesker, a very limited amount of cures through the match, which means like half way through the match the entire team runs at perma hindered, which is a big thing for a 115% killer

    Btw I think his anti loop is way stronger at pallets when you dont hit the survivor but insta break the pallet. No waiting for the drop until you may kick it, being able to at least move a bit, not stuck on the pallet during the animation + no speedboost for the survivor to force him use the next pallet available. Nemesis is equally strong at shredding pallets as Bubba.

    injure + infect at tier 3 makes sense as you have to build up to that point, but giving all the other effects for free? really? I mean he only needs 2 hits on separate survivors to reach tier 2, its not like he stays useless like a myers until he first reaches tier 2. even with the one addon for more progress on survivor infection, the first survivor hit 3 times is enough to reach tier 2

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,143

    Remember when that boon came out that said it gives you 2% speed? Every survivor main said - nobody cares it's 2% speed.

    When you play against PH you can choose to never become tormented. When you are good at dodging you can almost always dodge a whip attack from Nemesis or waste so much time that it was not worth it.


    -"but giving all the other effects for free? really?"

    Nurse and Blight are the strongest killers in the game with no buildup required. They are the killers that should have buildup. Make Blight start with 3 stacks and give him +1 every time he does a bounce rush and hits someone. That would be a huge nerf to a killer that is what most people call : way too strong.

    Likewise make the Nurse hit people 6 times with a single blink before she ever gets access to a second blink. That too would nerf her significantly.



    -"its not like he stays useless like a myers until he first reaches tier 2"

    But here you are saying yea Nemesis would be a problem if he got buffed. No he wouldn't. The Zombie aspect of Nemesis's power is a joke. Overall that part of the power does something useful about one in five games when you consider all the giant maps and maps where the zombies repeatedly get stuck. If Off the record didn't or Sprint Burst didn't work 20% of the time there would be a patch fixing it within one week

    If you take this one addon then Killer XYZ can have an ok game. Ok well do you not see the problem with that? Nemesis isn't Nurse; if you need an addon to make his power accessible then that should probably just be a part of his base kit. See Ghostface and Legion rework ideas for why certain addons were removed and folded into the base kit.

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,620

    yeah... I totally disagree with most things. I don't know why you compare Nemesis to nurse. Nurse is a problem because she ignores everything survivors use to protect and will always be a problem in the state she is as long as she isnt't nerfed to a point where she can't blink (which is kinda what you suggest). She already got nerfed like "she cant blink as often as before" and everyone was like "nurse dead now" and look where we are now. Still the same as before, aren't we? So I don't argue on that part.

    Just in short: The game should be balanced around M1 killers. But if you balance around M1 killers, you will notice that maps are the main problem. Therefore they fix it with killers that have anti loop powers and the closer you get that anti loop to nurse, the worse it will be for game health. I don't say Nemesis will be a problem if he got buffed. I'm saying it will be a problem if he gets buffed too hard. You listed 4 effects and adding all of these will not be just a slight buff and can easily get out of hand.

    Not sure how exactly your next points are related to Nemesis hindered effect, so the following is basically offtopic I guess.

    • I dont care what people say when something is new, they also said on PH "the telegraph! you will never be able to hit with his ranged" until they noticed this is mainly a zoning tool. I don't agree that 2% is nothing. it helps only on certain loops, yes. shack for example is easier to play because if you mess up the timing the boon gives you back a bit to compensate. and 2% is hard to notice, if the killer doesn't notice, it messes up with hit timing on when to go for lunge attacks, especially on vaults and pallets
    • yeah you can chose to never get tormented, but that (in my experience) gives the killer just a bunch of free hits as you have to run into the open and PH is still faster than you while trailing.
    • I also disagree that zombies are useless. They are buggy sometimes but that is a bug. and pls let's not start the "BHVR is survivor sided" discussion here. it is a bug and everything needs to be fixed. you just don't notice the effect of zombies regularly. If I play against Nemesis, zombies can be annoying AF, more regularly than not in my experience
    • Where did I say that you need an addon to have OK games? I just said that it is pretty easy to get to tier 2 because you need just to hit 2 separate survivors or with addon the first chase already gets you there. This is both pretty fast. (Nemesis addons are overall pretty lame btw, he could use a pass, imho it doesnt change a lot if you play him addonless)
    • I dont think that it is that easy to dodge his tentacle strike. do you only try hits open field? as soon as there are any obstacles right next to the survivor you can zone them. they cant dodge into the wall so you can make them dodge into your strike, while you can still strafe during the attack and move the hitbox into the obstacle. as you describe it, it sounds that it is almost impossible to ever land a hit, like a new billy that tries to land chainsaws at 20m distance

    To sum up: Im not saying Nemesis is the strongest killer in the game. But I think people underestimate several effects when discussing about buffs and just point out single numbers or effects and forget about several side effects or the total picture.

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,143

    -"I don't know why you compare Nemesis to nurse"

    Nurse lost the busted addons this patch so once again it is fair to play against her. That being said SWF got stronger this patch with the rework of all gen slow down perks. Nurse needs to exist as a strong killer as long as SWF exists with no penalty or restrictions.

    Nemesis might be "OK" enough with just an addon shuffle if he were unable to play against SWF teams. But that's not how the game works.


    -"The game should be balanced around M1 killers."

    You're joking right? The M1 killers primarily speaking are some of the worst killers in the game and survivors want to go against them because it is a guarantee of an easy win. If we balance the game around M1 killers then no map can be larger than 9000m². Likewise there can never be more than 12 pallets and at most each map will have 1 "god" pallet and 6 Unsafe pallets +5 safe pallets.


    The opposing argument is SWF groups should only play against Nurse or Blight. No I'm not actually suggesting that but it would make SWF fair in its current form.


    "I dont think that it is that easy to dodge his tentacle strike. do you only try hits open field?"

    Open field hits are actually the hardest place to score a hit against good survivors because they can go in any direction to dodge.

    I play Nemesis a lot so I know how to bait tentacle hits and I know how to hit people on loops they think they are safe. But I see some survivors who are almost impossible to whip. Some of them are just absolute mad lads.

    I got 99% of my rank ups for blood point rewards this year playing Nemesis so I know how to play him.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,323

    Start to count your wins against loses. Nemesis is above avarage killer. I see no reason to buff (or nerf for that matter) this killer. When you get to 50 games - check your killrate. I am pretty sure it will be above 50% (indicating slight nerf would be OK - not that I advocate for it).

    The only indirect buff would be fixing his zombies to not get stuck - that will still not make that huge difference, because it no longer happens as often as it used to.

    And zombies are useful - as a slowdown. You shouldn't expect hits from them, but it's almost every nemesis game that some zombie comes and forces me out of one loop, protects some generator or even facecamps hook. Check the map and see how often has the zombie raised hand. By avarage you can count 50% of that time as direct survivor slowdown.

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,143

    "By avarage you can count 50% of that time as direct survivor slowdown."

    On the swamp maps it is very common for the zombies to get stuck and do literally nothing productive. I've had them bug out and literally not be able to move from a hook spawn on those maps. I actually had to punch them 2-3 times while carrying someone to use that hook.


    Zombies should be no clip for Nemesis (he shunts them aside by moving through their space) as they often block him in chases especially through the new RPD and other tight doorways. Name another killer who can say : I won't get a hit now because my power which is out of my control got in the way.


    "Start to count your wins against loses. Nemesis is above avarage killer."

    Then limit the opponents I can face to only above average. Make a cut off point on the MMR chart and say Nemesis is here, Clown is down from that and nurse is WAY up at the top.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,323

    Naming other killers - Blight/Oni mid rush if he missed (you are out of control to correct it (especially blight has bad cancel)), Wesker to a degree (you miss (and are out of control to not go full distance) or you cancel your ability and now you can't m1).

    Also it's not that rare that zombies block doors/narrow paths - they even don't loose collision, so sometimes they screw over survivors big time.

    But to repeat myself - I am not against fixing zombies so, that they don't get stuck. But saying, that they are totally useless is huge exageration. They can be totally useless in some games, but they can win others on their own. It's more problem of how inconsistent they are (sometimes they work as if controlled by best team of players in DBD, other times they are just stuck on a single spot)

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,143

    "I am not against fixing zombies so, that they don't get stuck. But saying, that they are totally useless is huge exageration. They can be totally useless in some games"

    I watched Otz play one game of Nemesis today. He played on Mother's Dwelling which is the largest map at over 12,000m². Both zombies were stuck for almost the entire game. Neither zombie applied any pressure because the map is so big. I was trying to say that zombies are nearly completely worthless on large maps.

    Honestly there shouldn't be "large maps". But that's just something we have to deal with and is unlikely to change so zombies should maybe have double detection radius on large maps. Maybe we should change the infected status to double the zombie detection radius? So then If you play a large map and someone is infected then the zombie (which wont get stuck anymore) will detect you from 4x the normal radius that it would compared to a "small map".

  • Devil_hit11Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 2,657

    i'd say zombies are useless/have low impact on all maps that are not indoor's. in my experience from playing vs nemesis, the mains maps that i would notice their effectiveness is elementary school, lery and RPD. I think its because of narrow hallways for zombies simplifies AI pathing.

    zombie-wise, he would need like 3-4 zombies for zombies to have good impact on the match but they said that the reason why his zombies are limited to two is lagging issues but there are many games that host more then 2 AI's in the game and the game does not lag. i have played some mods games that have had AI playing the game and one issue behind AI is that if AI get stuck, they will spam commands into the game-command prompt which causes your computer to lag and the more complicated the AI, the more you will freeze the game. for DBD AI, it can only has like 5 actions, up, down, left, right and melee attack, but for most complicate games, like league of legend style, you can make AI active item skills and do combos, like flash-throw iceball, ability 1, 2, 3 etc. but if an AI like this gets stuck with inputs, you will like freeze the game and lag client.

    I would say when zombies getting stuck is likely reason why they're lagging from spamming 100's of inputs even if its just spamming right-left 10 times per second. Another aspect that might be causing zombies to lag is that no killer in dbd creates real-units, so when nemesis kills a zombie or a survivor drops a pallet. they might not be deleting the unit in memory which can create memory leaks. Zombies are likely underwhelming because they did not bother/had no time to optimize them. as a result, the zombie power not that amazing.

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,143

    Fog was removed from DBD because consoles could not handle it. It was a mistake in my opinion to add consoles to DBD because the fog was essential to stealth. That part of the game is effectively gone and it is dearly missed. One of the best counters to Nurse was the fact that you could hide from her before a chase.

    Several console players have told me that the game routinely has micro freezes at regular intervals such as when someone completes a generator.


    However it is also important to note that DBD is modeled after Payday 2 and has influences from Starbreeze. They took part of the PD2 frame added a 5th player slot and it already stretched their code to an uncomfortable degree. Once upon a time there was an old bug where people could join a lobby to take the place of a survivor that had just died. Most of the time when this happened the game immediately crashed because it had to "juggle" 6-8 players potentially being in the game.

    I had this old bug happen at least 20 times and once I had about 12 people in my lobby in total. The other time it was stable was a game where only one more person was added . Every other time it was a nearly instant crash. Note the survivors who logged in never moved but became something else the game had to deal with.


    Something else to consider is that Horvath wrote the nurse code as he created that killer. From what I have heard nobody wants to mess with that too much because it's code soup to someone else. The zombies might be the same problem. Joe coder might have made the zombies, then got a job at intertrode (so he can go to lunch at flingers everyday). Nobody knows how Joe made the zombies work exactly and cant get it working better.

  • Devil_hit11Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 2,657

    wow. I didn't know that. I used to play stealth payday 2 on deathwish difficulty and run solo missions completing entire mission solo. I was really good at stealth that I could beat the mission often in the first try, sometimes I messed up and need 2-3 tries. The lobby looks a lot like payday where you can see heisters but dbd, you see survivors. fascinating. I imagine AI is hard to code. Nemesis zombie power is really unique and really cool. I think not enough people give credit to how unique each dbd killer is despite the balance of each killer being less then optimal.

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