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Old Pop was good for the game

IMO, the gen regression perks that give benefits and information that gets the killer away from the hook should be far stronger to encourage their use. Old Pop was a good example; you had to leave the hook to go get a gen, and it only did anything if you got hooks, not hook states. This meant that camping was far less effective because you had to leave the hook to get value from the perks, and you had to get hooks to get value.

More passive slow down perks like Deadlock should be the ones having less value, since they do not involve the killer actually doing anything to get the benefits.

Rewarding active play by making the perks that benefit from hooks and moving around stronger while making passive ones worse is the way to actually deal with camping.

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Comments

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,144

    Old pop rewarded the killer for hooking There's no reward to keep chasing new people so your best bet is to remove one person from the game.


    Survivors find a generator and get it to 33% and then stop right? No they finish it. Killers do exactly the same. Both sides create a feedback loop that makes for more tunneling.

  • sizzlingmario4sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 3,708

    While I did like Pop because it encouraged killers to get away from hooks and actively go for more chases to get continued use of it, it still deserved a nerf with the base kicking buffs.

    Even now I think it's still an okay perk, unlike Ruin which got completely destroyed.

  • WhoudiniWhoudini Member Posts: 309

    Agreed, it was a very well designed perk that was strong and rewarded the killer for playing more fair/fun (IE leaving the hook or hooking multiple survivors).

  • XordXord Member Posts: 455

    I've rarely seen a comparison as stupid as saying survivors are tunneling generators out of the game. Generators aren't human being trying to play and enjoy the game.


    Also the comparison is extremely poor because splitting up is a much more effective way to win the game. It doesn't reward with bloodpoints though.


    if as killer you can't win without tunneling, it's 100% a skill issue.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368

    This.

    His comparison is like half chasing survivor and leaving him be. Then going for other survivor and when within 2m distance - leaving him be again. And he calls that tunneling gens

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,992

    Pop was basically untouched for gens with a lot of progress, and compensated on lesser repaired gens with the basekit damage when kicking a generator now. It’s the BBQ nerf that is actually more at play here, I would argue. You can still run Pop to do its job, but most killers flat out dropped BBQ once it no longer provided up to double BP every match.

    But there’s really no reason to run Pop anymore, because of the oppressive Overcharge + Call of Brine combo. Both of which even on their own give stronger regression, and usually information as well (unless a survivor is hitting hard and great skill checks every single time).

    And I agree that Deadlock should require some killer input. You can just equip it and facecamp, and still slow the game down.

  • CrowmanCrowman Member Posts: 5,999

    I think pop is largely fine. Being current progress instead of max progress is fine although it probably didn't also need a value nerf as well. You can control which gen you pop so it's not like you are forced to use it on a gen with little progress.

    Pop would probably see play if there weren't just better slowdown perks that can do the same thing as pop, but more consistently

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,144

    "if as killer you can't win without tunneling, it's 100% a skill issue."

    The rule you are setting here by definition then means that Otz has no skill as a 9000 hour player. Every time I tune in to watch his killer stream after a few games he has one tough match where he has to camp tunnel and slug to win.


    Your rule is valid only when talking about low MMR.


    -" tunneling generators out of the game. Generators aren't human being trying to play and enjoy the game."

    Generators are the killer's objective. Removing them too fast reduces the killer's enjoyment of the game - but almost nobody thinks about that.

    It would be a waste of time to get 5 or even worse 7 generators to 33% before completing one right? Well it's the same story for hooking a survivor. If you hook one survivor three times the total generator repair capacity possible by the survivors goes down 25% forever.


    We could apply your tunneling rule to survivors too. Play a game (non KYF) where you get 5 generators to 33% before ever trying to get one gen to 66%. If you have one gen below threshold you can't work on any generator past 33% or 66%. You are allowed to get multiple generators to 33-66-99% so that you are not held up by one generator.

    You have never even for a moment considered playing survivor like that. It's ridiculous that you decide the killer should play in an inefficient manner while survivors should play to complete their objective as fast as possible.

  • XordXord Member Posts: 455

    "The rule you are setting here by definition then means that Otz has no skill as a 9000 hour player. Every time I tune in to watch his killer stream after a few games he has one tough match where he has to camp tunnel and slug to win."

    -I do watch Otz and I've never seen him tunnel. Camp only in an endgame situation, I've never seen otz hook one survivor at 5 gens then just facecamp him for 5 minutes. Otz would not be a famous streamer if he did that, nobody wants to watch Meg's crotch for 5 minutes. I think.


    "Generators are the [survivor?]'s objective. Removing them too fast reduces the killer's enjoyment of the game - but almost nobody thinks about that"

    -Losing in a game is frustrating, but even if no one wants to admit it in the moment, we do actually enjoy our time regardless of our final score. We wouldn't play a game that we only enjoy about 50% of the time. You described a situation where the killer loses the game. it happens. But if the survivors just played better, it's alright.

    I'd much rather have a fair game that I lost, rather than spend a game chasing toxic tea bagger/spam clickers, even if I end up with 3 kills, and the 4th escapes while still being toxic. It's still a win, but it's not enjoyable.

    Believe it or not but people around here enjoy the game. it's not perfect. it has tons of flaws. But it's enjoyable. You don't need to get 4k to have enjoyed the game.


    "We could apply your tunneling rule to survivors too. Play a game (non KYF) where you get 5 generators to 33% before ever trying to get one gen to 66%. If you have one gen below threshold you can't work on any generator past 33% or 66%. You are allowed to get multiple generators to 33-66-99% so that you are not held up by one generator.

    You have never even for a moment considered playing survivor like that. It's ridiculous that you decide the killer should play in an inefficient manner while survivors should play to complete their objective as fast as possible."


    -That's where you comparison doesn't work. We're not asking killers to deliberately let survivors win, we are asking killers to respect the humans beings they are facing, and to refrein from using a cheap strategy that is, technically, a reportable offense (officially, it's not, but in the reports, you can see "abusing a gameplay flaw to get a competitive advantage", which is what tunneling is).

    Tunneling is officially something that the developpers are working to remove from the game, which is entirely logical, in an asymetrical game, you HAVE to design a game mechanics that prevents the solo player to easily remove one opponent from the game, leading to a snowball situation.

    Now the developpers are doing are VERY poor job at it. Litterally they've been working 6 years on it and we went back when they deleted Decisive Strike. With DS being baseline, with 5 seconds duration, it's possible we are finally back in the right direction, and considerint it's the most requested change, it's probably going to happen in the future. overall, the game is going to be more and more agressive against tunneling. If you can't adapt, you'll have to stop playing killer.

    Main point is: Your pityful comparison assumes working on gens separately is the same thing as making the game miserable for one opponent.

    And for the 999999th time: HAVING 3 GENS AT 33% IS LITTERALLY THE MOST OPTIMAL STRATEGY THERE IS IF YOU WANT TO ESCAPE. I don't know why you can't understand that but YES, having a lot of gens working at the same time is litterally GOOD. It's better to have gens slowly build up and popping at the same time than having one gen pop early and then let the killer snowball from there.

    YES, YOU SHOULD 100% HAVE 3 GENS AT 33%. IT'S GOOD.

  • PaintedDeathPaintedDeath Member Posts: 461

    Pop is still a good perk, and you can combine it with other Gen kicking perks. I like to couple it with Oppression. Chase someone off a Gen, kick it and then know who is working on other gens, while causing potentially 3 other gens to regress. Pretty good value

  • RaSavage42RaSavage42 Member Posts: 4,292

    I wonder how long it'll take the gen to be at 0% if: Pop, Call Of Brine and Overcharge were used

    But anyway... Pop was good for what the Killer needed to do to get it (chase, down and hook a Survivor)... but it lasted for 45 Seconds and that's what the first nerf dealt with

    The second less intrusive nerf was to the % of progression lost (with makes sense cause they added % of progress lost to the basekit)

    So Pop is still good but in terms of actual use... it's subpar when compared with the other regression perks

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,144

    "-I do watch Otz and I've never seen him tunnel. Camp only in an endgame situation"

    About a week or two ago I saw Otz play a game on Lerys vs a SWF. He got his first chase after two gens were done. That person went down near the basement. They pretended to give otz a chase so he never left the basement and essentially he camped that person to death at the top of basement entrance. It wasn't a face camp but you can be sure it was a camp. Otz tunnels all the time when he is on a streak he doesn't want to lose.


    "You described a situation where the killer loses the game. it happens. But if the survivors just played better, it's alright."

    So if the killer tunnels one person out before he loses any generators does that means he just played better? It's alright to say yes (by the way this is sarcastic).


    "That's where you comparison doesn't work. We're not asking killers to deliberately let survivors win, we are asking killers to respect the humans beings they are facing"

    The level of favoritism you display towards the survivor here is unreal. How about if survivors don't touch the 3 gen I want to keep for the entire game then I won't tunnel? Right - see as a survivor your natural instinct is to create the opposite of a 3 gen : what my friend calls a "Y gen".


    "you HAVE to design a game mechanics that prevents the solo player to easily remove one opponent from the game, leading to a snowball situation."

    Having a "Y" gen setup allows the survivors to run away from the game. Are they going to shrink all the maps? Are they going to make all the gens closer together? You can't just remove tunneling unless you remove the idea from both sides.


    -"refrein from using a cheap strategy that is, technically, a reportable offense (officially, it's not"

    I hate to break it to you but the devs have said tunneling camping and slugging are valid tactics. They have literally asked on stream to stop reporting those things.


    "HAVING 3 GENS AT 33% IS LITTERALLY THE MOST OPTIMAL STRATEGY THERE IS IF YOU WANT TO ESCAPE"

    You don't understand what I am suggesting.

    1. Load into a map.
    2. Work 5-7 generators to 33%
    3. Stop work on any generator past 33% at any time than 5 generatros are under 33% progress. If 5 gens are past 33% progress go to #4.
    4. Work 5-7 generators to 66%. Stop working on any generator past 33% if we lose the "33% threshold". If 5 gens are past 66% progress go to step #5.
    5. Work 5-7 generators to 99%. Stop working on any generator past 66% if we lose the 33% or 66% threshold. If 5 gens are at 99% go to step 6.
    6. Finish 5 generators at 99%. If there are no longer 5 generators at 99% go back to the previous necessary step. Immediately stop repairing generators.


    This set of instructions is ridiculous. But it is essentially what survivors are asking killers to do. Hook each player once. Then hook each player twice.


    In order for me to play like that I need people to:

    1) not loop well

    2) Always throw the pallet on the first loop (different from a pre-drop)

    3) never try to break three gens.

    4) use map offerings that the killer wants to play on

    5) don't bring items

    6) play solo queue as balance intended without voice coms.


    And this too is ridiculous to ask of survivors. So I start every game as if I will get 100,000$ for the win. My objective is to tunnel one person out as fast as possible while holding a 3 gen setup.

  • XordXord Member Posts: 455
    edited September 20

    "About a week or two ago I saw Otz play a game on Lerys vs a SWF. He got his first chase after two gens were done. That person went down near the basement. They pretended to give otz a chase so he never left the basement and essentially he camped that person to death at the top of basement entrance. It wasn't a face camp but you can be sure it was a camp. Otz tunnels all the time when he is on a streak he doesn't want to lose."

    -It's only your word though, again, never saw him camp, if you show a video where he does, I can only admit he might have done it once or twice (it happens to the best of us to get mad at someone in a game), but it's definitely not one of his habits.

    Otz did a no damage run in dark Souls 2, bruh, he has the skills to get 4 kills without tunneling.


    "So if the killer tunnels one person out before he loses any generators does that means he just played better? It's alright to say yes (by the way this is sarcastic)."


    -It's litterally impossible not to get 4 kills when you tunnel, so using that strategy allows for a 100% guaranteed 4 kills. Not really what I'd call "playing better".


    "The level of favoritism you display towards the survivor here is unreal. How about if survivors don't touch the 3 gen I want to keep for the entire game then I won't tunnel? Right - see as a survivor your natural instinct is to create the opposite of a 3 gen : what my friend calls a "Y gen"."


    -Asking the killers not to cheat is "favoritism for survivors", uh? Litterally, it's exactly as if I was calling someone out for cheating and you were replying "BuT SuRvIvOrS ArE DoInG GeNs tHaTs OnLy fAiR".

    Tunneling is a form of legal cheating, because it's a game design flaw that is currently being worked on and that 100% guarantees getting 4 kills.


    "I hate to break it to you but the devs have said tunneling camping and slugging are valid tactics. They have literally asked on stream to stop reporting those things."

    -They have absolutely never said it was valid, they said they were working on removing those strategies and that reporting them would not result in a ban, since it's their own fault for not having fixed it.

    Which makes sense. I do report tunnelers and facecampers, I KNOW it can not possibly result in a ban, but it sends the message to behavior that whatever fix they're working on, it's urgent.

    I think it's funny how different corporations handle different problems. While Respawn are banning tea baggers, while having built in functionalities that allow for in game bragging, you have bhvr that says it's okay to litterally ruin games on purpose.


    "This set of instructions is ridiculous. But it is essentially what survivors are asking killers to do. Hook each player once. Then hook each player twice."


    My set of instruction is "don't tunnel, don't specifically remove one person from the game, ignoring other survivors, abusing the DS nerf, and ensuring survivors can't possibly escape no matter how terrible you are at the game".


    Your set of instruction is "survivors should go afk and just stop doing anything".


    It's absolutely not the same thing, you're litterally telling me that the equivalent of the killer not ignoring all survivors but one is the same thing as survivors going afk and not working on generators at all.



    "And this too is ridiculous to ask of survivors. So I start every game as if I will get 100,000$ for the win. My objective is to tunnel one person out as fast as possible while holding a 3 gen setup."


    -What you don't understand is that the changes we are asking (DS baseline with 5 seconds, nerfs to killers if one survivor is killer and all others are P0, etc...) are made so that if you were to play a game and win 100k if you get at least 3 kills, then what should happen is that your most optimal strategy should be not to tunnel.

    That's what behavior tried to do with the Off The Record change, for exemple.

    Post edited by Rizzo on
  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,144

    -"Tunneling is a form of legal cheating, because it's a game design flaw that is currently being worked on and that 100% guarantees getting 4 kills."

    It's nothing personal but you are taking it to that level. Tunneling out gens or tunneling out survivors is efficient play. Make both sides stop.


    The biggest advantage you can have in DBD is to play in a SWF. You instantly get more information that solo queue players would have to use all their perk slots for but you can bring all action perks. Communication allows for unreal levels of coordination that this game was not balanced around.


    -"My set of instruction is "don't tunnel, don't specifically remove one person from the game, ignoring other survivors, abusing the DS nerf"

    And what if I said : my set of instructions includes let a generator fully regress when I kick it if it is part of my 3 gen? I find the rules you want to impose ridiculous so I respond with some that hope you realize you are being unreasonable.

    We aren't playing football; there isn't a 10 yard penalty for roughing the unhooker.


    -"we are asking (DS baseline with 5 seconds"

    DS was a guarantee with 5 seconds but it is a reward you earn with 3 second duration stun. If you make a good play then the DS gets you a new chase. The killer already has enough opportunities to lose a hook. You want the game to be way too favorable for the survivors.


    -"if you tunnel, You're just a terrible human being."

    We are playing a game where if I finish my goals then your goals are hindered. I'm not some robot playing killer for your amusement. One of the causes for me to play hard on survivors is when I play against a bully SWF squad. Most killers say the same thing; they get conditioned by SWAT SWF teams so they start playing every match as hard as possible. If they are winning easily then they might let up.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368

    So 33% of single gen or it's "tunneling". Ok. Let's apply same rules. You can chase 1 survivor for 33% of one gen = 30s or it's tunneling and so you need to swap target.

    Oh bullshit and that is not tunneling? Well doing 33% gens is also not tunneling. You can chase single survivor for 15 minutes for all I care and I still would not call that tunneling. Same way as there is no "leave unfinished objective just so" tunneling.

    Tunel was and always will be ignoring everyone and everything else in a match just to rehook person that just got out of hook. If you leave him time to hide/heal and find him again, people will not call it tunneling (if you don't drop actual more favorable chase just to get already hooked person). Your definition is flawed on so many levels.

  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,144

    -"Your definition is flawed on so many levels."

    Tunneling is not defined by the game. It's a made up term by people who don't like when the killer plays efficiently. Survivors play most efficiently by tunneling out generators by finishing them. A killer can hook one person three times to eliminate them and reduce gen completion potential by 25% or he can hook three people one time and have nothing.

    Asking the killer not to tunnel when you are tunneling out the generators is quite silly. You could be getting all the gens to 33% so you're not tunneling his gens. But instead you want to finish your objective as fast as possible. Newsflash : the killer wants the same thing.


    If we remove tunneling from the game we need to remove generator tunneling so that the killer does not feel the need to tunnel because survivors finished two generators before the first chase (and in so doing removed his three gen setup).

  • BastardKingBastardKing Member Posts: 768

    Bruh, what Otz are you watching? He even had a 2 hour discussion with Tru where Otz supported camping while Tru didn't. Tru said the game needed to be balanced around hooks, and that kills is not indicative of good gameplay, while Otz said kills do matter, and that camping to second hook is a skill that requires strategy to use as well.

    As for this stupid notion that Pop promotes camping that some people have said, it literally doesn't. Unlike some other perks, like Deadlock, which works 4 times without the killer doing anything, Pop requires you win a chase, then go kick a gen. If you do not get another hook afterwards, Pop does nothing. It's contribution is nothing if you are not getting HOOKS, not hook stages.

    I think the 'current progress' is fine, but it needs to go back to its base 60 seconds if it is current, so you can be more strategic in its use. 45 seconds only made sense when you could selectively completely shut gens down. Otherwise, it at least needs a buff to its numbers so it does something. A Pop used to be worth 20 seconds of progress. Current Pop, at best, is worth 18 second +2 seconds from base kick, if the gen is at 99.9%. At 50%, it is only an 11% kick. Deadlock, by comparison, is 30 seconds of shut down for free. So it either needs a higher base time to facilitate tactical use, or it needs a higher base percentage since it is only affecting current gen percent, not total.

  • FeryGENFeryGEN Member Posts: 501

    I can agree that POP was a good perk, it shouldn’t have been heavily nerfed, at least they didn’t make 20%, but left 25% or 30%, but even with these numbers, taking away more than 15% from the generator is generally a feat.

    I think so, it would be a good buff to do, the farther you are from the hanged man, the stronger the regression when kicking.

  • BastardKingBastardKing Member Posts: 768

    First game of the 50 Win Streak on Artist, at 25 minutes he specifies he needs to kill the Kate who just got off hook and hope she doesn't have DS, eats her DS, continues to tunnel her, and then says a minute later he needs to camp it out and rely on No Way Out to save the game. He has 1 kill by the time they are down to one gen, and he only got it by tunneling off hook, eating a DS, and he planned to camp it out too. He then proceeded to tunnel her out after she got unhooked last second.

    Second match, he tunnels Yorichi off hook after he gets two hooked.

    In the 4th game, he doesn't tunnel, but mentions that because he didn't he could lose the game after he ate a DS anyway.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 9,715

    Pop is still a good perk, you just have to try and not waste it on gens that aren't at least 50% done.

    Coincidentally Otz just posted a sample game with Pop on Youtube today talking about some possible combos with it and showing roughly how much regression it offered (I think he got about 8-10 uses at 10-15 seconds each.) Pop is the first game in the video, the second game he uses Ruin and Surveillance. (He also admits Ruin isn't as good as Pop in the video but does think it still has some traction when you pair it with Surveillance and additional slowdown. I'm not a fan of the current Ruin personally but I do agree with him that Pop is still a good perk that's being overlooked by some people.)


  • DBDVultureDBDVulture Member Posts: 1,144

    I used to regularly pop gens at 20% so they would go down to zero to help secure a three gen. Pop can no longer do this so it lost most of its appeal. I was regularly kicking gens with Pop before the patch to make gens take 120-180 seconds longer overall. There's no way you can get that kind of value anymore with the current skill over and over and over again like you could with the old Pop.

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,992

    If your best available gen to Pop is at 20% progress or less, it sounds like you’re winning anyways. 🤨

  • WesCravenFanWesCravenFan Member Posts: 1,853

    That is so not how old Pop worked.


    What happened was you won the first chase, hooked, kicked the nearest gen, the person doing it saves, you come back and tunnel off the hook, hook them AGAIN, then kick that gen AGAIN.

  • ReshyReshy Member Posts: 401

    It was far too nerfed. It should've been a flat 20-22.5% reduction, rather than the pathetic 20% of current progress which is basically nothing unless the gen's almost always done. Alternatively, make it remove 40% of the current generator's progress. It's more than the 25% of old pop, but only when above 75% on a generator.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368

    But devs made tunneling gens bad strategy already. Going more then 1 person on each generator (the only definition of gen tunneling that can hold) already has some serious debuff - that is partially (mostly) countered by proof. Yet it's still not good idea for multiple people to work on single gen (discordance and killers like legion, bubba, armed plague, ...)

    But devs didn't think such debuff would be cool on killer's side. But this might actually be the solution. Slow down killer's speed by 5% and shorten the lunge by 50% (lounge thing only so it applies also on nurse) when tunneling. To determine what is tunneling - consider if chasing just-unhooked person that did not do any conspicuous action. Maybe highlight such survivor in some not-too-visible way (e.g. dark round shadow at the center of said survivor, or something on the hud).

    Yes. Thanks. This might make it equal on both sides to "tunnel" stuff.

  • XordXord Member Posts: 455

    Considering your reaction to losing an argument, I'm informing you that I'll be permanently ignoring your comments from now on on these forums.

  • KerJuiceKerJuice Member Posts: 1,742

    Old Pop, Old Ruin, AND ESPECIALLY Old Undying were fine, and should’ve never been nerfed/reworked IMO. Waaay better than what we have today. As much as I hated going against the old versions of Pop & Undying, they were at least counter-able if you knew what you were doing. It was solo que that made that a nightmare. OMG i just realized something, imagine if today’s entitled ragequitting players had to deal with those 3 beasts in their hey day?? Their heads would explode from salty tears.

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 9,715

    Nobody is disputing that Pop is weaker than it was, my point is simply that it still offers enough regression to be worth using even at 10-15 seconds per kick instead of 20.

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,992

    Old Ruin and old Undying “fine”... 🤣 Unless you mean old old Ruin, where you could only hit great skill checks. That Ruin was fine.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368
    edited September 21

    AFAIK it's killers who dominate this forum with requests to nerf survivors and buff killers over and over again to the point of 61%.

    If I remember correctly, the game used to have literal infinites. Hooks could have been sabotaged forever and maps had much more resources for survivors....

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