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Basekit unbreakable. One simple question about a situation that will 100% happen....



  • mizark3mizark3 Member Posts: 350

    Twins yes Oni no. If you use Oni's power and get 4 downs you win, so the most you can get is 3. With 3 power downs that takes 7s off of the max power duration each, for 21 fewer seconds of power. That means with Oni's basekit 45s reduced by 21s is 24s spent downing the 3 people. That means you have that 21s to pick up the first person you downed before they pick themselves up. After that you can hook them in the sequence you downed them. Oni is thereby unaffected for legitimate power usage, and only nerfed for excessive slugging. As far as the Twins go, honestly fudge Twins, they deserve it. Although you can still Victor pounce into Charlotte M1 and never risk people picking themselves up.

    Are people genning b4 fren or are they threatening pallets/clickies? They can't do both simultaneously. If someone is threatening the pallet/clicky save you have 45s to ward them off and get the injury, which usually would be free if they were close enough to pallet save. Then you can pick the first one up no problem. If it takes you 45s to get an injury on someone close enough to pallet save, then honestly basekit self-pickups are the least of your worries. Also Clickies don't shine through walls, just face the wall before pickup. (Technically they can shine through windows, even closed ones like Dead Dawg, so be careful with those, but otherwise you are safe.)

    Never put infinite stuff in the game? Should we remove healing Survs, injuring Survs, doing gens, kicking gens? There still is the 4 minute bleedout and 3 hook stages to kill them with. The limit should placed on hook stages, not the cheesy permanent incapacitation slugging gives.

    Also to the first thing you were responding to the other person old Boil Over was never a problem, RPD Library was the problem. They fixed the Library and threw the baby Boil Over out with the bathwater. It was still very counterable even then. Just drop spam near the ledge and the stagger when falling off your shoulder would be so much that they couldn't run back up to their high ground on any map. That was an instance where you could hard prevent a perk from getting the intended value by slowing yourself down a tad bit.

  • mizark3mizark3 Member Posts: 350

    I doubt it will be the problem the doomsayers make it out to be, but I think we need to stress test it in the PTB before just outright claiming it will be impossible to deal with. Also if that 1 guy is hiding he isn't doing gens, and if he is doing gens then you can hook him near the gen, which isn't in the corner with no hook. The base problem is still a macro failure on the Killer's end, and they should strive to never death hook in corners or near exit gates. If the Survivor gave up on hook then that is an early kill given to the Killer for free, and the Survivors likely aren't going to win regardless. Failure to account for the potential future of the match is a failure in a player's skill.

  • WhoudiniWhoudini Member Posts: 309

    I do not want to play a match with 2 or more unbreakables with survs who stand in unbookable corners, it would drag for ages even if I eventually won. Even for optimal use they literally buffed one of the best surv perks in the entire game.

  • mizark3mizark3 Member Posts: 350
    edited September 26

    And I don't want to play any match against Killers who facecamp and hard tunnel the unhooked Survivor off of hook even when the other Survivors are willing to take chase. Sadly we can't always get what we want, and UB is an anti-BM perk. You will be unaffected by it if you simply pick up and go to hook. You still have the UB 22.5 seconds to scare people off. Its strength is entirely based around the playstyle of the Killer, and when the Killer hooks people the Survivors simply get 0 value from it. Many other perks have their strength based off of the user of the perk, as opposed to the opposition. The main perks that gain value from your opponents playstyle for Survivor are the anti-BM/anti-bully perks. They only provide the value the Killer decides to gift them.

    Post edited by mizark3 on
  • WhoudiniWhoudini Member Posts: 309

    At least facecamping the game will end in 5 mins, if survs want to they could drag it out for 15 mins + no thanks.

  • mizark3mizark3 Member Posts: 350

    Just as power-spam Legions and slowdown stacking Killers can currently. Also many facecamp matches have Survs actually want to play the game, so they go for the rescue at 55s if it isn't an instadown/exposed Killer, or even longer with Reassurance. Making that take ~8 mins minimum, to reach the 8 hooks before deaths start happening.

    Overall though we should seek to minimize the bad experiences in all facets. I think early facecamping is a far more common experience than a theoretical Survivor corner camp bleedout suicide pact would ever be.

  • WhoudiniWhoudini Member Posts: 309

    If the survs keep dragging out the match against a face camper thats on them just focus on gens and pop reassurance once if you can. Also a power spam legion should not work if you just spread out if you do this legion can legit injure 1 guy at a time and be forced to chase said one guy normally.

  • Dream_WhisperDream_Whisper Member Posts: 335

    I would be fine with the new Unbreakable changes, if they keep the speed bonus yet you still cannot pick yourself up until 45 seconds have passed or a fellow Survivors comes pick you up.

    Or add a penalties toward Unbreakable, like you get hit with a Exhaustion status effect apply to you, so they cannot used a dead hard or sprint burst immediately.

  • TragicSolitudeTragicSolitude Member Posts: 6,048

    I had a match today where there were four survivors left, three were on death hook and the Mikaela hadn't been hooked once. I found her, and after a bit of chase I downed her but apparently there was no hook close enough and she got off my shoulder. You know what she did then? Can anyone guess? She ran back to the same goddamn spot to get downed there.

    If this stupid Unbreakable change goes live, then that is a freaking lose-lose situation for the killer. Seriously. Today, I was able to just down her a second time and then go off and find and kill the other three before they could get to her. Great job, Mikaela; if she'd just gone on a hook, it would've actually been better for her team. Instead, she bled out for four straight minutes.

    If the basekit-unlimited-pick-up change goes through, though, then Mikaela would've been able to pick herself back up, and that would've been a load of crap. No hooks were broken or used, it was just a really bad spot plus really bad hook RNG, and there was nothing I could do about it except slug.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368

    Did you try to drop her from a height? Did she have boil over or any other perk to help her wiggle? Or you were really close to hook (so no aura) or it was in the open (nothing to obstruct hook, so it wasn't red). Perhaps you played nemesis and forgot to use zombies.

    Like what you are trying to write happaned to me only on midwitch (or breakdown/sacrifice/boil over fiasco was in play). So I really wonder about details (as I play sabo builds and I am very interested exactly in these situations)

  • TragicSolitudeTragicSolitude Member Posts: 6,048

    No Boil Over, I specifically checked for that when I picked her up. I was doing a Clown daily and ended up on the Ironworks of Misery map. Mikaela went up the stairs into the room in the main building. I broke the door and picked her up and discovered that the hook inside the building didn't spawn and after maneuvering through the door and dropping down there was no hook near enough to get to. (After I downed her a second time, Mikaela actually got birds up there. She didn't make any attempt to crawl to another survivor to get picked up.)

    Doesn't help that on controller even without Boil Over it's almost impossible not to get stuck on doorways for a few seconds when carrying a wiggling survivor, so the distance I can make from inside that room is shorter than it'd otherwise be.

    I've seen it happen to other killers on Ironworks of Misery. As survivor, I've watched killers down a survivor and try to carry them over and over again. Sometimes hook spawns are bad on The Game map, too. Worst is Midwich, of course.

  • FeryGENFeryGEN Member Posts: 500

    I think the changes to the basekit Unbreakable will introduce additional hooks for situations like this.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368

    Ah. Then it's clear. Main spawned basement. You didn't notice this, because the elevation difference was just too large for you to notice. It is 100% possible to carry survivor from top room to basement (as you can drop thru hole in a ledges).

    Also you could let her wiggle to 70% and then drop her of from a height. She would wiggle out, but get staggered - making the chase take like 5s to get her again in better possition. But I am pretty sure you didn't need this trick.

  • BastardKingBastardKing Member Posts: 768

    And here's your equal attention cake, survivor main!

    Let me teach you some basic math and empathy you seem to lack. If you have a problem and I have a problem, there are TWO problems, not zero. So complaining about your unrelated issue is very crass.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368

    I am talking about your double standards. Some problem that happens basically never is HUGE problem on your side, but the same kind of a problem that happens more often than not is fully OK and intended behavior. And at this point I am quite sure that survivor's side is not getting fix. The complains about this issue are game-lifelong complaint as far as I heard (I don't play this game from the very start). But the killer's version of same thing that has like 1% probability and can be completely countered by single perk (and you can even choose which counter to pick) to manifest itself is HUGE issue that needs immediate fix.

    Well. I don't buy it. Why such an imbalance?

  • BastardKingBastardKing Member Posts: 768

    It isn't a double standard. It is called 'staying on topic'. It is only a double standard if you think every discussion has to revolve around you. Also, you can literally watch youtube videos of people in PTB making themselves impossible to hook. If this goes live, it is not a 1% chance anymore.

  • BastardKingBastardKing Member Posts: 768
    edited October 2

    He jokes that it is 'not that OP', but if you watch they can easily have someone on gens and just choose not to, Tofu himself admits it is because being on gens wouldn't make for good footage.

    You can also watch TruTalent's display of how with Unbreakable and Soul Guard, you cannot down people quick enough to get all four down without STBFL or insta-downs.

    Also, the idea that it is a '5% chance' is falacious. Any game with multiple floors can be exploited ALREADY. I have had people use hook offerings and the game map, and it ended up that there was not a hook on an entire quarter of the bottom floor. The closest hook couldn't have even been reached with agitation and iron grasp. Below, I circled the closest hook on the map. Please not, the stair case is NOT in the next room. There is also basement off screen to the right, but that is far beyond reachable. None of these hooks have been saboed. Because the game registers the hook up top as being 'close' it doesn't feel the need to spawn one on the bottom. It did this so many times in a row that the only bottom hooks are off in the far sides of the map. All they had to do was run to the pig slurry machine, jump down, and they were safe. So I just slugged them. But if they could just get back up, then I basically have no way to win the game.

    (The hooks above and to the upper right are closer distance wise, but the stairs do not go up near them, so they are further travel time wise.)

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368

    Ok I see the problem. Thanks for the clip.

    I will not acknowledge what tofu said about it being balanced, because it most of the time ended up with 2k. This is not the way the game should be played.

    There is one other factor I saw in each and every game provided (your's included). It's always about corner abuse. Most of the maps don't use corners, because they are dead zones (see ormond from tofu's video) - meaning survivor will go to corner only to abuse hooks/sabotages. So all we need to fix the issue is just fixing the corner (see that they "never" played in the center of the map, because this would not be possible).

    Maybe forced-spawn hook in each corner (and each floor if it has multiple floors) would solve it. After corner hooks are spawned, let RNG generate all the other hooks with standard hook rules.

  • BastardKingBastardKing Member Posts: 768

    Yes. Hence me saying they need to fix hook placement. That was literally the point I made that has been argued. There are several areas in the map with only one reachable hook, and some that have no reachable hooks. One sabo play, which has no counter if done right, ends all your work. Getting a kill is punishing. The usual counter is leaving them on the floor slugged so someone else has to come get them, but that isn't an option anymore. There is literally a zero counter play way to shut down all possible killer progress. And if you have one person on gens during this, you inevitably win.

    What they need is to stop hooks from despawning if someone is killed there, and to make hook placement not adjust for vertical distance unless there is a stairwell nearby. A base buff to how many hooks are on the map would help to. Nothing major, but two extra per map could make things a lot more reasonable.

  • GandorGandor Member Posts: 1,368

    As I noted before - the only problem I see are corners. This is also the reason why I never saw this issue in my games. As survivor you basically never see any reason to go to corners as corner = death (as a rule of thumb, there are no loopable objects at the corner with a few exceptions on some map). So only comp players that know, that they can't loop any more (this is real sacrifice and nerf to these people), or sabo abusers from your video (something legitimate that needs to be addressed), or total beginners would ever go to corner.

    So why can't we fix it by adding artificial hooks into corner and call it a day? Situation like this never happens otherwise (not counting midwitch, which is whole different problem altogether)

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