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Dead Hard Rework = Failure

New dead hard is becoming increasingly meta again. It's not unusual at top MMR to see 3-4 dead hards every game. As usual, the community overreacted and declared a perk "dead" only for it to become a meta again a few weeks later. To get the most value out of dead hard, the proper usage is to use it near the pallet making the killer choose between swinging (and proccing dead hard) or eating a pallet stun. In other words, 0 counterplay scenario.

The Dead Hard rework has failed to achieve what it was supposed to do - to prevent uncounterable situations for most of the killers. In fact, it's reasonable to say that it has become even stronger than it was before.


But let's look into arguments that say that the new Dead Hard arguably has more counterplay/is weaker than the old Dead Hard:

1 "You can not use it for distance any more" - this is correct, however, you can use it near the pallet which guarantees a successful endurance hit. Now instead of using it to get to the pallet, you use it when you are near the pallet. And some could say that it's a nerf, right?? Well no, using it in a new way is arguably even stronger compared to before: 1 You gain sprint burst 2 You save a pallet. You literally gain more benefits with the new dead hard.

2 "Just wait it out" - no, you cannot "just wait it out" in some of the scenarios. A good survivor using DH properly is uncounterable by most of the killers. In other words, we're back to the same situation as with old DH where killers either have to choose between taking L or taking L.

3 "It doesn't do anything when not near a pallet" - so did old dead hard? In fact, the new dead hard is even stronger when used in the open as you can gain massive sprint burst if used successfully. Old dead hard, even if used in the open, bought you only a couple of seconds until the killer caught up to you.

4 "You can not use it anymore to gain distance to the window" - the only solid argument that could be said that new DH can be weaker than old DH. With that being said, while this particular point is nerfed, the nerfs are offset by buffs in other scenarios.

5 "It takes skill to use new dead hard" - one of the most oblivious statements to be made. It doesn't take much skill to use new dead hard in an uncounterable way. If a killer is close to you, and you are very near a pallet, press E. Few practice games and you can do it with relative ease and it doesn't even require you to time the killer attack. Congratulations, you just learned an uncounterable mechanic. Most of the community will know how to do this a few months from now.


Conclusion

Ultimately, the Dead Hard rework has changed nothing in terms of preventing uncounterable and unfair scenarios. It has become increasingly meta again and is not hard to utilize it to its most potential. Some could say that new dead hard is even stronger than old dead hard, and that's an insane realization considering old dead hard wasn't nerfed for 5+ years.

Solution

Remove the uncounterable mechanic of using dead hard at a pallet. After using Dead Hard, prevent a survivor from dropping a pallet for X seconds. This way, the perk is actually skilful and rewards the survivor for properly baiting an attack from the killer. There is nothing skilful or fair about using it at a pallet to guarantee a 2nd chance (why does this sound so much like old dead hard hmm)

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Comments

  • almofan1001almofan1001 Member Posts: 218

    And what if a survivor uses dead hard properly? In other words, you don't have a time window to swing "after dead hard" because you got stunned.

    Your suggestion is based on assumption that survivor can't time DH properly.

  • DeathstrokeDeathstroke Member Posts: 1,615

    Just remove the I-frames from pc players and it will be fine. Pc players can use it after swing which is problematic but on console it does not always even work if you press it before hit. As long as pc players can't abuse it then it's fine. I have seen pc players even use it after they are hit.

  • almofan1001almofan1001 Member Posts: 218

    It wasn't even nerfed in the first place lmao. Any survivor who uses it properly is getting more value out of it than old DH. And using it properly is not hard.

    "Skill issue on your end" sounds like a low MMR issue on your end. I am sure you are fine with new DH because probably survivors you go against are using it randomly in the open. In such scenarios, the counterplay is extremely easy.

  • almofan1001almofan1001 Member Posts: 218

    I see. DH is not used properly yet to the extent compared to old DH, but I am already seeing even average survivors using it effectively. I think in a few months' time the DH pick rate will be even higher and it's already a top 3 used survivor perk.

    I don't know though why you prefer old DH if we actually look at what happens afterwards when using DH properly. With old DH, you would gain a short distance and a pallet drop. With new DH, you save a pallet, and you gain sprint burst. It's just not even comparable in terms of benefits. Maybe a placebo sense?

  • DEMONANCEDEMONANCE Member Posts: 447

    idk who brainwashed people into thinking this perk takes "skill".

    like literally it's just a react perk it doesn't take skill all it takes is you reacting to a killer's lunge and it's just luck whether you manage to do it or not barely any skill involved.

    and now survivors use it in situations where you're forced to lunge or when using your power (pig's dash - wesker's bound - bubba's chainsaw..etc) and you have no way of countering that so where's this "skill" exactly??

    many perks that were changed with the perk reworks were changed in the wrong way like (self care - calm spirit - dead hard) and they need to be looked at again.

  • almofan1001almofan1001 Member Posts: 218

    Maybe? It's hard to say. But old DH wasn't 100 % of the guaranteed distance to the pallet/window either. Sometimes you dashed too far, sometimes too little. You had to have good timing (same as the new DH), so really, not that different?

     Nu DH is just in some very specific situations that takes either great skill by the survivor 

    How is using it a pallet is "very specific situations"? It's a very common occurrence, and if they didn't make it to the pallet, then they had bad timing. Disagree though about it taking great skill, baiting M1 takes great skill, while pressing E at pallet is not much skill involved.

  • almofan1001almofan1001 Member Posts: 218

    Thank you. Seems like most people in this thread play a completely different game based on naive responses of "get good" and "skill issue". I'd really like to watch their games to see what survivors they play against :)

    There is no skill, you are correct. It's basically a "get 2nd chance" perk (just as it was the same before). The mechanism of using it has been changed, but it still has the same broken mechanic of creating uncounterable situations that act as a free 2nd chance opportunity for survivors.

  • KreeGKreeG Member Posts: 11

    Yeah it's a skill-less perk, definitely no issues on your end at all... /s

    If it's that meta then play as if every survivor has it, or you test for it and if they have it then great you now know and can play around it/bait it out. Yes sometimes they are going to time it into a pallet drop, but stop pretending like that is the only situation people are using dead hard in and claiming that it's un-counterable or too strong of a perk. You aren't trying to have a civil discussion here, you are just trying to get people to pander to your opinion, which in my opinion isn't a good take on the perk.

  • AcelynnBenAcelynnBen Member Posts: 894

    Dead hard went from the most hated perk to the most respected, because when someone pulls it off (not near a pallet or window) i actually respect them for it

    so no its fine

  • almofan1001almofan1001 Member Posts: 218

    Old DH was also useless in most situations besides near pallets and/or windows. You know, the same perk which had an 80 % pick rate at high MMR. So really, you're not making any argument.

    you are just trying to get people to pander to your opinion, which in my opinion isn't a good take on the perk.

    Please tell me where I discussed something in a non-civil way or demanded people to agree with me. Most of my opinions are unpopular, so I don't know how I can expect people to pander to me. As far as I can see, I am only interested in other people's discussions regarding my points.

  • almofan1001almofan1001 Member Posts: 218

    Yes, the perk is balanced and very skilful (maybe even the most skilful survivor perk) if used in the way you described - baiting an M1 attack. It feels fair, and I genuinely feel outplayed because I had the tools to counter this mechanic but didn't do it properly because of disrespect/lack of attention/etc...

    Now what is not fair is when people just use it near a pallet to get a win-win situation for themselves. If they removed/patched this mechanic, the perk is in a great state and healthy.

  • AcelynnBenAcelynnBen Member Posts: 894

    true that still the most annoying part about it, but i think removing that, would just make it very weak but again its not the perk its the maps, sometimes they can use it and gain a little time and sometimes they go on a jungle gym, but i see your point

  • Marc_go_soloMarc_go_solo Member Posts: 3,215

    For me, I feel it has been nerfed, and now it is a perk that requires more thought in using.

    The distance change is definitely a nerf, which you've acknowledged, and the issue raised is how to use it near a pallet.

    But two specific points I disagree with are 1) the argument that it cannot be waited out, which I've managed to do a fair few times and I'm not an expert. It's true in certain situations it is harder, but they are similar situations as before - pallets, being one. You can bait out DH, but there are certain areas which result in a lose-lose. Old DH had a fair few lose-lose areas too. At least the new one is narrowed down to a specific scenario.

    2) The bit about it not being skillful. The example given does indeed make it harder, but anywhere else not near a pallet does require timing, and therefore requires skill. It's not an oblivious statement to say it takes skill and timing, because in certain areas it clearly does.

    From my games, DH is fairer than before. People may see it differently, and that's fair. Just it's not an issue now from my perspective.

  • KreeGKreeG Member Posts: 11


    Then get to the point of your argument. Because everyone in this thread is basically disagreeing with you, and then your rebuttal is "Low MMR" or "non skilled survivor use a get out of jail free card". The point of the perk is to be a 2nd chance perk, would you like it removed from the game?


    You don't like the perk, great we get it. It seems as if you're in the minority and a majority of the player base is fine with the changes. So it's time to adapt.

  • GrimoireWeissGrimoireWeiss Member Posts: 1,408

    Idk I see a lot of Dead Hard but I also see a ton of Lithe and Sprint Burst in my matches. If we're going by the 0 counterplay argument you can argue that for these two perks as well as they work by giving you free distance.

  • VeinslayVeinslay Member Posts: 1,642

    I wish they just changed this perk to do something else completely instead of keeping in this completely unfun, bogus gameplay loop of breathe down the survivor's neck and wait for him to Dead Hard before you can swing. It's obnoxious. No killer player enjoys this at all. It's amazing how they spend patch after patch to fix "unfun" things in the game that Survivors hate, with slugging being next on the board, while old Dead Hard stayed in the game for 5+ years, maps are still broken as hell, and 4-man SWF stomps every killer that's not a good Nurse or Blight. Literally nothing to fix any of those things that killers find unfun

  • dugmandugman Member Posts: 9,715

    Old Dead Hard was better than the new version, but the new version is still quite good. It was much easier to use the old Dead Hard to guarantee vaults and pallets than the new one, for one thing, and also there are various things in the game that the new version doesn't help with that the old one did such as Trapper's traps, Deathslinger's spear, Plague's infectious puke, Doctor's Shock, getting through bodyblocks, etc. The only thing the new version is better at is it gives a bigger speed boost when it triggers (the old one had a speed boost built in too but it wasn't as much total distance gained away from the killer.)

    Really the main problem with Dead Hard is cheaters using auto-Dead Hard which was a problem before the rework too. Otherwise its usage is still only about half what it was prior to the rework.

  • IrisoraIrisora Member Posts: 1,410

    The new DH its much better and rewarding, and in some situations stronger, you can for example go to the exit gates with the sprint you get from the hit and escape from very far away.

  • JustAnotherNewbieJustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 594

    How does that work? Is it a latency issue or a keyboard issue? I'm asking because I play with a controller on pc but via Geforce which I assume might influence the delay I get and I can never get instant dead hard. I'm sure I press it at the right time but it doesn't activate and I'm hit. I have to press it much earlier for it to work. It's really confusing.

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