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For those who claim that winning is defined as pipping

I do admit there is some gray area with what counts as a win (it says the killers wincon is to sacrifice the survivors, but what about moris? Bleed outs? And how many?) . But it very obviously isn't defined in terms of pipping. And dying as a survivor is obviously never a win while escaping through the gate obviously always is one (hatch is another gray area because it specifically mentions powering all 5 generators)

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Comments

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    @Ryuhi said:
    Why does this bother you so much? Win conditions can be defined by any player individually in pretty much any game. Its what the concept of a "moral victory" is. The reason people think pipping is a means of victory or defeat is because it is directly related to how the ranking system works in the game. Pipping also works a fair bit differently now than it did when that tutorial was created, btw.

    I know pipping has been changed. But since games are balanced around winconditions and people make arguments based on if something causes you to win or not ect that ends up being useless if people can't agree on what a win is in the first place.

    And when the game has somewhere that explicitly defines what you are trying to accomplish, you DEFINITELY shouldn't be claiming that your wincon isn't something that is even MENTIONED in that definition

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    @Paddy4583 said:
    Oh so to win as a killer you need to do everything you do to pip? So pip = win.

    thanks for clearing that up for everyone :)

    No. You can stay under a hook all you want without going negative on your wincon dispite that making you go negative on pipping.

    Also as legion has proved you can pip without sacraficing anyone even though that is the one thing that is very clearly stated to be required in order to win at least to some degree

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    @thesuicidefox said:
    Pips are the win. If you want to play to some imaginary standard, don't complain about the game not fitting YOUR model. You should adapt to the game, the game should not change just for you.

    And no where in there does it explicitly say you MUST KILL or MUST ESCAPE to win. It gives you a list of objectives, do those objectives and you get points for a pip. If you kill/escape it CONTRIBUTES to a win but is not the exclusive criteria for a win.

    @Ryuhi said:
    Pipping also works a fair bit differently now than it did when that tutorial was created, btw.

    Also this. But even still, the tutorial is telling you how to pip not to 4k/escape.

    Point to where it says you need to heal other survivors in order to win as a survivor.

    And no I don't mean to Increase your odds of winning, I mean "if you don't do this it isn't a win"

    And it's also VERY clear that one way or another your end goal is too escape

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    Oh and in a sufficiently drawn out game you can pip without accomplishing ANY of these objectives on both sides

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 7,485

    @NuclearBurrito said:
    Also as legion has proved you can pip without sacraficing anyone even though that is the one thing that is very clearly stated to be required** in order to win at least to some degree**

    Putting survivors on a hook =/= killing them. If you 2 hook everyone, you will almost always pip because of Chaser/Malicious, 1 point Devout (for hooking everyone), and probably at least silver Gatekeeper just because the game would have had to gone on for at least 7 or 8 minutes for you to catch everyone twice.

    Also the last part IS WHAT A PIP IS! ffs

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    @Ryuhi said:
    Well look at it this way: If you hide in a corner and do literally nothing the entire game, wait for 2 gens to get done while your 3 teammates get killed, and then you sneak into the hatch getting a whopping total of 5k survival points and no pip.... do you honestly think you won?

    Yes

  • RyuhiRyuhi Member Posts: 863

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @thesuicidefox said:
    Pips are the win. If you want to play to some imaginary standard, don't complain about the game not fitting YOUR model. You should adapt to the game, the game should not change just for you.

    And no where in there does it explicitly say you MUST KILL or MUST ESCAPE to win. It gives you a list of objectives, do those objectives and you get points for a pip. If you kill/escape it CONTRIBUTES to a win but is not the exclusive criteria for a win.

    @Ryuhi said:
    Pipping also works a fair bit differently now than it did when that tutorial was created, btw.

    Also this. But even still, the tutorial is telling you how to pip not to 4k/escape.

    Point to where it says you need to heal other survivors in order to win as a survivor.

    And no I don't mean to Increase your odds of winning, I mean "if you don't do this it isn't a win"

    And it's also VERY clear that one way or another your end goal is too escape

    You can pip while completely ignoring a single category, if you do well in the others. You won't double pip, but even gen jockeys can middle between a black pip and a single pip consistently. Same with people who get constant safe unhooks and heals but never touch a gen. Double Pipping is an "overwhelming victory" and shows that you exceeded the norm in all 4 categories.

  • The_CrusaderThe_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688

    That's what I like about high ranks, people play for pips. You get more epic rescues because people go for the hooks rather than hatch camp to escape.

  • RyuhiRyuhi Member Posts: 863

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @Ryuhi said:
    Well look at it this way: If you hide in a corner and do literally nothing the entire game, wait for 2 gens to get done while your 3 teammates get killed, and then you sneak into the hatch getting a whopping total of 5k survival points and no pip.... do you honestly think you won?

    Yes

    So selling out your entire team is a victory if you contribute nothing and purposely prevent them from being able to succeed. Thats almost teamkilling level and you consider it winning. You should probably just go play battle royale games or something.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @NuclearBurrito said:
    Also as legion has proved you can pip without sacraficing anyone even though that is the one thing that is very clearly stated to be required** in order to win at least to some degree**

    Putting survivors on a hook =/= killing them. If you 2 hook everyone, you will almost always pip because of Chaser/Malicious, 1 point Devout (for hooking everyone), and probably at least silver Gatekeeper just because the game would have had to gone on for at least 7 or 8 minutes for you to catch everyone twice.

    Also the last part IS WHAT A PIP IS! ffs

    And NOT what a win is. The game specifically says that the killer needs to sacrafice people. It gives a list of things that should achieve that (as opposed to thing that are themselves goals) and then states that you should also try and stop them from doing gens btw.

    However the only thing that is actually described as a goal is sacrificing. And hooking != sacrificing as sacrificing is only when they actually die on the hook.

    Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    @Ryuhi said:

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @Ryuhi said:
    Well look at it this way: If you hide in a corner and do literally nothing the entire game, wait for 2 gens to get done while your 3 teammates get killed, and then you sneak into the hatch getting a whopping total of 5k survival points and no pip.... do you honestly think you won?

    Yes

    So selling out your entire team is a victory if you contribute nothing and purposely prevent them from being able to succeed. Thats almost teamkilling level and you consider it winning. You should probably just go play battle royale games or something.

    Not my fault the wincon says nothing about helping everyone ELSE escape

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    And this isn't really a team game. Each survivor has a slightly different wincon

    My wincon is for me to escape
    Your wincon is for you to escape
    "you escaping != "me escaping"
    thus
    Your wincon != My wincon

  • BradyBrady Member Posts: 1,330

    I understood that was the defying line (for me) what counted as a win or not; I took in the "pipping" system as more:

    You can still lose and pip 1; it just means "hey, you lost, but you weren't bad either.."

    If you obviously lose and don't pip or lose a pip, it said hey... they were better than you so we're bumping you down a lil and if you keep sucking you're going down all the way

    and a double pip and still losing? (it's happened, atleast for survivor) you died/destroyed but not everyone died for some reason but apparently played like a god, you still deserve to be placed with every ranked people..

    So there's kinda a line separating the pip system and what you determine is a win/lose. imo

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    @Ryuhi said:

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @thesuicidefox said:
    Pips are the win. If you want to play to some imaginary standard, don't complain about the game not fitting YOUR model. You should adapt to the game, the game should not change just for you.

    And no where in there does it explicitly say you MUST KILL or MUST ESCAPE to win. It gives you a list of objectives, do those objectives and you get points for a pip. If you kill/escape it CONTRIBUTES to a win but is not the exclusive criteria for a win.

    @Ryuhi said:
    Pipping also works a fair bit differently now than it did when that tutorial was created, btw.

    Also this. But even still, the tutorial is telling you how to pip not to 4k/escape.

    Point to where it says you need to heal other survivors in order to win as a survivor.

    And no I don't mean to Increase your odds of winning, I mean "if you don't do this it isn't a win"

    And it's also VERY clear that one way or another your end goal is too escape

    You can pip while completely ignoring a single category, if you do well in the others. You won't double pip, but even gen jockeys can middle between a black pip and a single pip consistently. Same with people who get constant safe unhooks and heals but never touch a gen. Double Pipping is an "overwhelming victory" and shows that you exceeded the norm in all 4 categories.

    You can get iridescent in both benevolence and and chaser while getting silver in unbroken without a single generator being done and thus 0 progress towards what is defined as a win in the tutorial

  • RyuhiRyuhi Member Posts: 863

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @Ryuhi said:

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @Ryuhi said:
    Well look at it this way: If you hide in a corner and do literally nothing the entire game, wait for 2 gens to get done while your 3 teammates get killed, and then you sneak into the hatch getting a whopping total of 5k survival points and no pip.... do you honestly think you won?

    Yes

    So selling out your entire team is a victory if you contribute nothing and purposely prevent them from being able to succeed. Thats almost teamkilling level and you consider it winning. You should probably just go play battle royale games or something.

    Not my fault the wincon says nothing about helping everyone ELSE escape

    Survival odds are based on cooperation. Not altruism to a fault, and not brutal selfishness. The overall best chances of survival are in cooperation. If there was no hatch mechanic, your idea of a win wouldnt even be possible. Its essentially exploiting a mechanic that was (awkwardly) put in place to prevent stalemates (while still creating them sometimes, amusingly enough.)

    If someone was skilled enough to loop a killer for 7+ minutes and his teammates could not get a single gen done in that time, I don't care about who survives, that survivor won that game. He becomes the noble sacrifice that his team did not deserve to be matched with.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    I don't even mean "I personally didn't touch a gen"

    I mean "no gens were touched by anyone"

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 7,485
    edited February 2019

    @NuclearBurrito said:
    Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

    "Patrol the area and find Survivors."
    "Chase, injure, and catch Survivors before they escape."
    "Carry Survivors to a sacrificial hook and hang them there for The Entity to consume."

    None of these listed objectives state "sacrifice survivor" or use the word "kill", nor do they state you MUST do these things. If you do everything listed here WELL ENOUGH, you pip. If you also sacrificed/killed them, it still fits within these rules because if you find>chase>injure>catch>hook them 3 times that's just the end result. In such a case where they die it means you did very well, and are awarded more for a win than usual (double pip).

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    Hell you can even get iridescent lightbringer without completing a single generator

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @NuclearBurrito said:
    Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

    "Patrol the area and find Survivors."
    "Chase, injure, and catch Survivors before they escape."
    "Carry Survivors to a sacrificial hook and hang them there for The Entity to consume."

    None of these listed objectives state "sacrifice survivor" or use the word "kill", nor do they state you MUST do these things. If you do everything listed here WELL ENOUGH, you pip. If you also sacrificed/killed them, it still fits within these rules because if you find>chase>injure>catch>hook them 3 times that's just the end result.

    Actually none of those even ARE the objectives. Read the lines above it:

    "The main objective of a Killer is to sacrifice survivors to the entity. In order to achieve this objective, a Killer should do the following:"

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,168

    It makes it very clear that your objective is to sacrifice and that the rest is just recommended in order to do that

  • e8Latticee8Lattice Member Posts: 189

    A good rule for life in general: "The one who finishes having had the most fun wins"

  • RyuhiRyuhi Member Posts: 863

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @Ryuhi said:

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @thesuicidefox said:
    Pips are the win. If you want to play to some imaginary standard, don't complain about the game not fitting YOUR model. You should adapt to the game, the game should not change just for you.

    And no where in there does it explicitly say you MUST KILL or MUST ESCAPE to win. It gives you a list of objectives, do those objectives and you get points for a pip. If you kill/escape it CONTRIBUTES to a win but is not the exclusive criteria for a win.

    @Ryuhi said:
    Pipping also works a fair bit differently now than it did when that tutorial was created, btw.

    Also this. But even still, the tutorial is telling you how to pip not to 4k/escape.

    Point to where it says you need to heal other survivors in order to win as a survivor.

    And no I don't mean to Increase your odds of winning, I mean "if you don't do this it isn't a win"

    And it's also VERY clear that one way or another your end goal is too escape

    You can pip while completely ignoring a single category, if you do well in the others. You won't double pip, but even gen jockeys can middle between a black pip and a single pip consistently. Same with people who get constant safe unhooks and heals but never touch a gen. Double Pipping is an "overwhelming victory" and shows that you exceeded the norm in all 4 categories.

    You can get iridescent in both benevolence and and chaser while getting silver in unbroken without a single generator being done and thus 0 progress towards what is defined as a win in the tutorial

    Which is exactly why most people don't go off of your definition of a win. Your definition completely excludes both skill and performance in favor of a static milestone that can be exploited.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 7,485

    @NuclearBurrito said:
    And this isn't really a team game. Each survivor has a slightly different wincon

    No but you would be wise to keep others alive because the more survivors there are the greater your individual chances to escape. It's in your better interest to do it to meet your other objectives.

    @NuclearBurrito said:
    Hell you can even get iridescent lightbringer without completing a single generator

    LOL who is even saying this?

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 3,797

    It says "sacrificing survivors" for the killer, so does that mean 1 or 2 is considered a win? you achieved your goal afterall as it doesnt exactly say how many you need ;).

    Gen rushing is also the biggest win for survivors.

    I think the tutorial does need updated and be changed to the basics of the game as a win is subjective to each individual, for me its about a fun match and making lots of bloodpoints.

    Personally escaping, killing, pips dont matter as I want those juicy bloodpoints to lvl up my chars

  • RyuhiRyuhi Member Posts: 863

    @NuclearBurrito said:

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @NuclearBurrito said:
    Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

    "Patrol the area and find Survivors."
    "Chase, injure, and catch Survivors before they escape."
    "Carry Survivors to a sacrificial hook and hang them there for The Entity to consume."

    None of these listed objectives state "sacrifice survivor" or use the word "kill", nor do they state you MUST do these things. If you do everything listed here WELL ENOUGH, you pip. If you also sacrificed/killed them, it still fits within these rules because if you find>chase>injure>catch>hook them 3 times that's just the end result.

    Actually none of those even ARE the objectives. Read the lines above it:

    "The main objective of a Killer is to sacrifice survivors to the entity. In order to achieve this objective, a Killer should do the following:"

    Kinda amusing you're sticking to that so much for killer, since the victory message for killer is 100% linked to your pip status, and not kill count. You can displease the entity with no survivors, and you can be a merciless killer while letting them escape. Really makes you think.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 7,485

    @twistedmonkey said:
    I think the tutorial does need updated and be changed to the basics of the game as a win is subjective to each individual, for me its about a fun match and making lots of bloodpoints.

    Personally escaping, killing, pips dont matter as I want those juicy bloodpoints to lvl up my chars

    Which you totally have the right to do. But because you set your OWN win condition, you shouldn't get mad at the games that just don't go your way. If you get a good group of survivors that loop and gen rush you won't get a lot of BP. It doesn't mean the game should change just for you and give you some kind of bonus BP even when you don't make a lot do you?

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