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Reason 4 Legion super nerf "Not enough counterplay". Let's look at some other killer's counterplay.

NobuNobu Member Posts: 139

Quote given during this YouTube video discussing Legion at about 31:00

https://youtu.be/XXtSA3YOKac

Ahem, ok let's start:

Trapper: Watch your toes, don't step in traps. Okay. still prevents loops and routes. Counterable.

Wraith: Keep your eyes peeled, dodge first hit, then he's an M1 killer with great map traveling abilities. Okay. Avoid body blocking into corners. Counterable.

Hiillbilly: Dodge the insta-killing, super fast, unlimited use chain saw that breaks pallets...no wonder he is top tier, no real counter play AT ALL. Just dodge. Not really Counterable.

Nurse: Dodge the unlimited, small fatigue (in comparison to Legion) window and pallet nullifying slow lady...no wonder she is top tier no real counter play AT ALL. Just dodge. Not really Counterable.

Doctor: Bait him into wasting time shocking and chasing you so other players can do gens. Otherwise great tracking, slow down and pallet nullifying killer. Not much counter play but there is some. Avoid being tier 3 madness. Gen rushing. Counterable.

Plague: Dodge as much vomit as possible, her ability takes a good amount of time to be effective, cleanse when you escape, but cleansing also gives her tracking and damaging vomit. All takes time, gen rushing plague and minimizing infection is most optimal. Counterable.

Pig: Eyes peeled, ambush notifies and gives players time to react, luck with boxes is counter play? Her crouch slows her down, taking time while searching for survivors while reducing her field of view. Counterable.

Freddy (atm): Snap out before he gets you and stay awake as much as possible. Counterable.

Leatherface: No map traveling abilities, is a more balanced HIllbilly, can be baited into reving chainsaw so you can escape through windows. Windows are Leathface's best weakness even though he often cuts you through them with the chainsaw. But it's something. Counterable.

Meyers: Avoid detection, stalking takes time and has a slow build for momentum, gen rushing works well. Counterable.

Ghost Face: Look at him. Then he is just M1 killer. Easy counter play. Counterable.

Huntress: Slow wind up and travel times give player the ability to react and attempt to dodge or bait her into winding up. Direct counter play. Counterable.

Hag: Crouching to avoid traps, slow speed, traps take time to put down but are still visible and counterable. Counterable.

Clown: M1 killer that can slow you and distort vision. Limited bottles (+refill time)let the survivor have a chance to avoid their ability until they are M1 killer. Clown success based on accuracy in throwing and predicting. Counterable.

Spirit: Her ability stops her from seeing survivor blood or scratches allowing the player to escape via multiple strategies. Not to mention her ability emits a wide range audio notification that puts survivors on alert. Counterable.

Legion: Basically a survivor, so yea absolutely counterable.

So in conclusion, out of all the killers, some of the oldest (Nurse and Hillbilly) have always had counter play issue. That is why they are top tier BUT Legion comes along and now counterplay is important? Now we know why they said "We will look at Nurse after Freddy is done". I understand counterplay is important for the game to be fair BUT what they did to Legion was not fix counter play. They limited Legion so much that a toddler could counter Legion.

In the video we hear

"We didn't like this, or that, or even this or that and this as well as these and those and....we got rid of any chance of Legion doing anything else but injuring people."

Not direct quote but you get the gist of it.

Legion had a cascade of changes that basically made him into a differnt killer. People played, learned, invested in a killer that was dynamic, different , fun and interesting. Not a killer that is only good for opening the exit gates for the survivors.

The point of this post is to show that there are and have been older, much less counterable killers than Legion. AND if the fix was to make him counterable they went about it SO HEAVY HANDED that Legion is no longer even a killer. The worst part is they do not listen to the community. There is a reason why "The Legion" is hte only killer in "Popular Tags" on the forums. Legion is NOT in a good place!

Note: The counter strats are NOT definitive and try not to take in consideration every perk and add-on. These are just basic observations, so don't come at me with the "but but but this build here......." and duh, these go beyond the "Dodge hide do gens don't die" counters. DUH.

Please add and discuss the counters for specific Killers.


TL;DR; Nurse and Billy have far less "counterplay" then Legion ever did, yet they are free to be as top tier as they like.

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Comments

  • ReikoMoriReikoMori Member Posts: 2,145
  • ZVomZVom Member Posts: 72

    i met couple survivors who in end game chat asked me why i play this crap, and said he is easiest killer to play against. Well if survivors are saying this already, sth's fucky then.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,520
    edited June 2019

    The whole discussion of counterplay was always a lie.

    No counterplay was a thing, anti-Legion survivors have happly pick up in nerf threads.

    The reallity was a different one:

    -To the most abilites of the Legion was a counterplay. Just because someone is to lazy to do it, doesn't mean, that it doesn't exist.

    -Why were some survivors really upset? Because of that counterplay thing? No! They were upset because the Legion could take them out fast via tunneling.

    And sry. but when a killer who really goes tryhard on tunneling, survivors won't survive anyways. No matter which killer do that. But that isn't a problem. For that, survivors need 3 times hooked before they die.

    In other games you are dead after the first hit. Dbd let their players at least 2 chances.

  • prettyfprettyf Member Posts: 442

    billy is counterable if you good enough at pallets and windows

    but nurse is never counterable, even my 2days played nurse never looks counterable for anyone in damn earth

    im sooo precise with blink after found them without whisper sometimes i just didn't hooked after get all bc stacks if they were not swf

    so they not even close to each other

    people can be good at dealing with billy they will adapt it someday

    im waiting til na people reach that and think the same

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    @Nobu I guess starting a chase and then finishing it by downing the survivor qualifies as tunneling or something.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Also. Since you CAN dodge Billy's chainsaw and Nurses blinks "just dodge" is a completely legit counterplay option.

    That being said Omega Blink Nurse counter's dodging soooooo...... yeah.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    @nan1234 Old legion had 132% MS and his stun was still longer than a pallet stun (3 seconds, a pallet stun is 2 seconds and current legion is 4).

    The thing about Legion is that he's easily gen rushed. When he's chasing you it's nearly impossible to stop him from downing you (doing so requires that you get pallet stuns off on him), however it takes him about 40 seconds of nothing but stun animations and cooldown time plus the actual time it takes to chase you in order to do it. Add in the actual chase time and the first set of gens will be done by the time he's downed you.

    In otherwords, it's not that Legion was OP, but rather he was consistently mediocre and uninteractive.

    Of course the REAL OP deal with Legion was the Franks Mixtape + Cold dirt shenanigans. Since with those 2 addons you would actually down people fast enough to get real results out of it. And since he's still consistent when using those addons he goes from Consistent 1-2k's to consistent 3-4k's.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807
  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    @Nobu In the order that you stated:

    • Also increases stalk requirement which counterbalances the effect down to reasonable levels
    • Omega blink is totally broken lol
    • There are still tells for phases such as crows, but yeah it's tough
    • It's surprisingly hard to hit a survivor directly with the bottle. It's good but it's not THAT OP
    • Has counterplay, you can dodge the hatchet and it has a downside
    • In this meta aura reading like that isn't as valuable as you would think. Sure it's important but it won't win you the game on it's own. Plus you can cleanse to get rid of it.
    • Trapper still needs to set them up in order for them to be in a good spot.
    • Literally Bannable if used like that. Otherwise it's not a very good addon anyway
    • Has a lot of downsides to counterbalance
    • If your talking about instasaw then I'm not actually sure how broken it is
    • Same as Billy
    • All seeing wraith has all of the same weakneeses as regular wraith and can be countered accordingly. Silent wraith still has the shimmer, so while he can get the jump on you by going around a wall it's not as easy as strong as it initially seems.

    The issue I was pointing out with Legions addons wasn't that they were OP. We have that, nor that it was braindead, we have that too. But that it's both of those at once. Even omega blink nurse requires some skill to use right, almost all of the best addons still have counters even if those counters only mitigate the effect. Legions addons are so good because they remove his main weakness entirely which is how slow he is at downing with Frenzy.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,520

    To be fair...

    Sometimes the Legion had no other chance as to tunnel.

    What I mean is... Experiented survivors have split up, as soon as they got aware that a Legion is in the match.

    Most times they had distances between each other member that you couldn't handle as a normal Legion*. So... that has sometimes force the Legion to tunnel, because the other targets where so far away, that the Legion couldn't reach a other target in frenzy time.

    *Of course, with addons like Franks Mixtape, that was never something the Legion had to worry about and that's also the reason why I hope that even with a rework undone, those addons never come back.

    I think it would be good for the Legion if survivors are finally forced to look at the Legion, how she was. How she really was. Not pumped up with purple+ addons.

    After my experience, many survivors had fun to play against a Legion without those addons and I had also fun to play with a Legion like that. I think if we could show every survivor that the Legion is not that bad, with a experience like from me described, the Legion would be more accepted in the whole community.

    Sadly instead, as I was defending the Legion to pre patch times, I had to fight at 2 fronts:

    Front nr.1: The vocal minority of real Legion haters (mostly survivors).

    Front nr.2 (and that is the tragic part): The Legions who have exploit and/or use purple addons+ in nearly every match. Those Legion's have imo put a knife in the back of the honest Legion's, while we had try to defend the Legion in those times. They had make the whole thing really incredible hard for us with a ending how we have it today.

    So TL:DR I would really love to see the real Legion back in the game, but I hope a bit, that the devs will fix the exploits of the Legion before they do it and that they maybe forget to also bring the old purple addons back :). Even that hater minority of survivors need to be forced to look at the Legion how she really is, imo.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,520
    edited June 2019

    Exactly. It would have been so easy to nerf the Legion with just nerfing the most common addons, or also to fix the exploits (at least the 2 knife exploit), but instead they overreacted and now we have this mess.

    Please devs, be brave enough to make the rework undone and just fix the exploits and if necessary, nerf the old purple Legion addons.

    The survivors won't be mad at you bhvr - if you do that - after my expirence, besides of course the vocal haterminority from before.

    But you know what bhvr? That were also mostly people who have dc, or were toxic to each other... Aka. not the people you should support in a game that already struggles with dc's and toxicity.

  • ReikoMoriReikoMori Member Posts: 2,145

    If using the addons that were made by the devs is putting a knife in other Legion players' back then I am concerned about what you think qualifies at "Honest Play".

    The addons exists to be used and no one should have the right to dictate whether or not you use them. I find it to be a rather dishonest thing to do when you purposefully handicap yourself to please other people. A killer has only one purpose and that is to kill the survivors in any way that the game allows without breaking the rules. You don't see survivors rushing to put away their toolboxes and instaheals. Why should they? It is in the game to be used no matter how bothersome it may be. Yet, killers are supposed to play to the made up standards and regulations of others?

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,520
    edited June 2019

    You are right that killers are supposed to kill survivors, but in the heat discussions back then, before the patch has gone live, those addons were just another nail in the coffin of the Legion.

    I don't say, that those addons should be gone forever, but we should give the survivors the chance, to look at the real Legion. So that they could actually see their strength and their weakness. And we so then receive understanding in exchange, maybe. Just to avoid another disaster patch.

    For both sites would that be a win situation.

    Imo they should make the rework undone, as said before and then maybe after a few months we can talk again about those addons.

    As a hurted killer, we just should give survivors the chance to understand the Legion before they have to face a Legion with strong addons.

  • nan1234nan1234 Member Posts: 131

    @NuclearBurrito you got the numbers right, sorry about the mistake.

    But the point is that nobody said legion were OP, because they weren’t. They were mediocre as you said. The problem with pre-nerf legion was actually their design as a killer. While I enjoyed playing them, I’ve seen people call them “braindead killer”, and playing against legion,well, it wasn’t actually playing, it was holding M1 while mending, or waiting for legion to down you, without an actual counter play. Legion weren’t the strongest killer, but they certainly had the worst design in the game.

    That’s why the devs nerfed them the ground, and that’s why I think they won’t buff them in the foreseen future, although legion needs it badly. It’s sad to say, but a complete rework to FF is the only option to this killer.

  • OdimmOdimm Member Posts: 33

    I have posted this in a few other threads but I want BHVR to aknowledge the current issues with Legion. (Just look at the main page of Killers/Balancing)

    Honestly, there are only slight changes needed and not a complete rework like some people imply. Here are the three that I believe would make him fun/viable again:

    Shorten his cooldown - 3s sounds managable

    Old vault speed back

    Make DW bar go down while doing a gen - this is the biggest issue with DW right now as survivors just ignore it and do gens in your presence as you get looped by another one... That way FF would apply decent pressure while still being fair and managable for the survivors

    That covers the core mechanics, the pin add-ons should also be applied by 1 hit as 60s duration is already kinda short because you need to catch and hang them first to benefit from it.

    Pray to BHVR

  • This is soo true, Legion is beyond boring to play as now, BHVR really wasted my money by changing Legion so drastically to fit what Survivors find engaging, and not what the Killer's find engaging.

    All these errors and bad design decisions and the fact that BHVR want to put in a system into their Killer's Powers that prevent Camping, Tunneling and other things Survivors moan about, Creating a incredibly ridiculous Killer we see today.

    Legion the one Killer which hits you, and runs away, so you can waste time licking wounds, I have no choice when I play them as Killer, it's always the same mode of gameplay, please do something about it. At Least the other Killers have different modes of play.

    BHVR, You gotta Rework Legion in the future, and stop putting in Nanny Systems into your Killers, They are Killers, not babysitters.

  • wisdomwisdom Member Posts: 216
    edited June 2019

    Old legion was like Freddy. It doesn’t matter how many times times you tell people they are #########, there will always be that’s drove of people who insist you are playing them wrong.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,520

    What parts of the survivors were thinking.

    I have met survivors in the ingame chat, that have like to play against the old Legion.

    Imo, the devs have listen to the wrong kind of survivors. There is a vocal minority in the survivors, that also is supported by a few toxic streamers.

    Those people have enjoy to see the Legion falling and they have for sure let you know that on the days after the patch.

    Those people have write nerf thread after nerf thread. They have by themself dc and shown toxic behavior towards Legion players and survivors who have defend the Legion and they have also encourage other players to do so.

    I don't know why behavior plays their little grumpy game, but after my experience it would have been the best, if they had just ban everyone who has dc and everyone who has other players encourage to dc, or to be toxic to others.

    Serious behavior... Those people cost you money!

    Maybe they buying from time to time a skin, but their behavior let also other people leave the game and I even talk here not from new people who "try" to join the dbd community.

    If a person behaves toxic, you do either nothing, or you do the complete opposite, but you should not play their game (or doing something that looks like this), or they start thinking that they doing right.

    Consequences from that is, that they start to be even more toxic and that the dcs increase. Reminds that us on something? I think so.

    I have by myself lead or moderate communitys for... mhm... 7-9 years, and well I had never give toxic people a hand. It was just to obvious what will happen then.

    For sure it would make me happy as a pre patch Legion to see the Legion back again on a healthy way, so that you can actually have fun playing that killer, but it would be also one way (of many ways), to show those guys that their time is over.

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