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Open letter / Feedback on player base

LuuneLuune Member Posts: 43

Dear Devs/BHVR, Dear Community,

this evening I felt the need to finally register to the forums and give you some of my thoughts on the current situation of the game or more specific: the player base.

I'm not a developer, nor a streamer or anyone who earns money from video games - just a random guy enjoying them as a hobby. I truly fell in love with this game a year ago and have been wholeheartly playing ever since. I don't mind the bugs that appear with patches. No big deal, because it can happen and it's overall a great game. I've also bought DLCs, cosmetics and such with real money to support the developers work - I really appreciate!


On that note: about attitude and our player base's behaviour.

Toxicity has always been an issue in this game as it is in every (competitive) online related video game (we get excited/upset, its the internet's anonymity etc. etc.). But this week, it has reached a new low (for me). Today, out of 15 matches, I only had one I could actually call "GG". Today I've kept count yet the last days weren't any better if not worse.

Survivor matches (the role i play the most): There has not been one match (we do swf - and we are none toxic, not even using flashlights and such) without a literal facecamp or at least the all so frightened tunnel. Not a tunnel as the killer was forced to because of gen progression, hook status whatsoever: no, it was the clear attempt to get someone out of the game in under a minute (tunnel moris and fast killers pendeling back to the hook every 5 seconds). I do not like to dc on games, but today i felt like having to, to reply to those players nasty behaviour. In after chat I asked why they did handle it that way. It's all the same insults and that it's me just crying etc. Yet I just wonder why people do not want good and fair games anymore. The issue for me as a survivor player is a rather psychological one: I would actually have a chance, but i get denied it by another player's choice. Luckily, sandbagging is not that much of an issue - it happens, but very very rarely.

Killer matches (attempt to set a positive example): I've had tbaggers, flashlight clickers (those who light on you, just to annoy you), people running around you to block you off in any possible chase, people making noise for as long as I'd take getting there (at one point I had to take my headset off) - at least one person every match. Sidenote: I do not consider flashlight saves, loops, sabos, 4 time instaheals, wiggle blocks etc. as toxic because they are game mechanics. The after chats (not many, as i play on Ps4/red ranks, if that has any value to you guys) just reflect the in-games behaviour - it is insults all over the place. But I do not expect a mannered tone from people who's only aim it is to trigger someone.


This is not meant to be a cry post, but I seriously wonder why no one is having a fun time in this game anymore (at least from my experience). Players even admit, that they want to be toxic and this week it has really reached the level of me thinking about uninstalling this game due to the players behaviour. I don't mind dying, I don't mind killing none but what I do mind is unfair and bad games. It's five people playing and not just one (whatever role you play).

In general, it appears all this happens around events. Actually that time, when things are a bit different and supposed to be more fun (exception is the Halloween event - but everything Bloodpoint related).

It might be due to the grind of bloodpoints, the aim to reach higher ranks or game balance/skill levels, but currently this is not a game to play to have some fun time. Which saddens, because before it has been.

Maybe you guys can share ideas on how to approach it or your own opinions/experiences. Maybe I just had tremendously bad luck with players, but I wish for a good and sportsmanlike attitude in an actually great game. With lots of positive intentions, Luune 🤗

Ps: Pardonme for any wrong grammar as I am not a mothertongue and cheers for reading all this, you crazy! 😝


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Comments

  • SoylentPixieSoylentPixie Member Posts: 1,019

    PS4 could definitely use more like you my friend, it's a veritable snake pit in there sometimes.

  • AssassinZodiacAssassinZodiac Member Posts: 254

    I'd be glad to play with you if you ever need a partner.

    Assassin__Zodiac

    Psn username

  • LuuneLuune Member Posts: 43

    That's what I've realised too. It's a vicious circle. But just imagine that high ranks give you nothing but a badge for that month of a season - i do not want to know what will happen once there are actual rewards for ranks. I feel like fair play should be honored way more to discourage unsportsmanlike plays - both sides ofc.

  • ReddRedd Member Posts: 826

    For better or worse, survivors have no one but themselves to blame for the absolute NEED to tunnel someone out of the game as fast as possible. It's the classic death efficiency problem. If someone doesn't die ASAP, then a good team of survivors will have the gens done in less than 4 minutes. And you cannot play assuming the survivors suck, you have to assume they are a good team. As soon as you get one out of the game though, your life is 10x easier and significantly less stressful.

    You don't like this simple fact at higher ranks? Ask the devs to nerf gen rush so killers have the time to be nice to people.

    --------------------

    Note, I play survivor too. I'm just as guilty as everyone else of gen rushing, and I don't blame any of the players for the current game's state. I just think it's as ridiculous to complain about tunneling as it is to complain about gen rush, and it's the devs people should be complaining at, not other players.

  • ReddRedd Member Posts: 826

    @Nosplash

    The entire gen rush thing is completely valid. It's just not something people should be asking survivors not to do; the exact same way survivors should not be asking killers not to tunnel. Everyone should be getting on the devs to balance their game.

    "Apply map pressure. It's not that hard." <- Yeah. It's called tunneling someone out of the game so you only have to be in 3 places at once instead of 4.

  • DarkskiesDarkskies Member Posts: 1,131

    It doesn't matter how you play the game you will still get hate and horrid things said it wouldnt matter if this game got perfectly balanced people will still have a problem and to be horrible for no reason.

    I have no problem with how people choose to play but i am responsible for how i play and how i treat people and i do both with honour and respect.

    And hopefully i see a few fellow ps4 players in here that feel that way.

    Ive had hate messages one guy would not stop because i kept replying gg 🐷 he hated i wouldn't feed into the toxicity.

    Dont feed the trolls play different be different be respectful. 🐖❤️

  • NosplashNosplash Member Posts: 77

    I do not have any more arguments/suggestions than the ones i gave but tunneling is a cheap/easy way for the killer to score/"win" the game. Hence the toxicity from survivors. Its like saying i'll break ronaldo's legs forcing him out of the game because i have to take care of one less player on the offence of the opposing team. It works, but it should not come to this. The game was designed for 4 survivors vs 1 killer. It's not meant for you to go out of your way(tunneling) to reduce that number to 3. Just get better at the game and you wont feel the need to tunnel

  • ReddRedd Member Posts: 826

    @Nosplash

    "Just get better at the game and you own't feel the need to tunnel."

    Spoken like someone who doesn't play killer at red ranks. Because in this game you have 4 options:

    1. Play Nurse
    2. Play Spirit
    3. Play Hillbilly
    4. Tunnel and hope the survivors are bad.

    If you think otherwise, you don't play against good survivors consistently.

  • ReddRedd Member Posts: 826

    4 Survivors are working on gens.

    The killer gets into a chase with a survivor.

    3 survivors are working on gens.

    The killer downs the survivor and hooks them. Another survivor is forced to go for the rescue, while the killer gets into a chase with a 3rd.

    1 survivors is working on gens.

    By this point in the game, there are only 1 or 2 gens left. If this is not the case, then the survivors are bad; or you are playing one of the top two killers (Spirit or Nurse).

    It is not sustainable at this point to go back to 3 survivors working on gens, which is what happens if you don't snowball out of control. The main way to snowball if you aren't playing one of the top 3 killers with decent add-ons is to get one survivor dead so that that last state in the above example becomes "0 survivors are working on gens." If you do not get to that state in the next few minutes, even one survivor working on gens will be enough to get the last 1 or 2 done.

    For most killers, at this point, the only option is to try to kill 1 survivor as fast as possible and hope the survivors start playing badly. You don't have time to do much else. It is not "cheap", it is not "easy", and it is not comparable to breaking someone's legs to remove them from a sporting event. It is often your only option against quadruple red rank survivors, and even then with most of the cast you will still depip. This is why certain killers are over-represented at Rank 1.

    If you don't like tunneling, then get good enough that you can run the killer around for 3 gens before getting tunneled, so at least the killer pays for it like they would against good survivors. Or bug the devs to make changes so this isn't the game-state every game where the killer isn't really good at playing Spirit or Nurse.

  • BunnyTheHuttBunnyTheHutt Member Posts: 1,773

    So, How does one apply Pressure on a killer like Trapper? or Legion? or Leatherface? Some killers just can't apply pressure unless the survivors stop doing gens (which happens sometimes, but not often). Even if they get a hit, you have too then find another survivor on another gen and loop another jungle gym for a hit too do what you are saying. And the excuse of "run Ruin and Haunted Grounds" is a bad argument since both are hex perks. They can be popped in 10 seconds of the match, and if they get ruin before haunted, you have wasted 2 perk slots because they will more then likely not pop haunted. And even if they do pop haunted it's not a guaranteed down since it doesn't stop loops and pallets. There needs too be another objective or longer gens, since 80 seconds is not even close too hard too with toolboxes and Prove Thyself.

  • Kind_LemonKind_Lemon Member Posts: 2,559

    Tunneling and/or shrinking the zone of play is the easiest (N.B. there are exceptions) way for any killer to get someone out of the game and reduce the pressure that takes away strategy, feelings of power, and horror.

    It's not the survivors' fault that the developerss structured their game this way.

  • LuuneLuune Member Posts: 43

    @Redd @BunnyTheHutt


    Let’s talk gen rush: As of the moment you got people injured or even downed they are in a lesser position to do gens, plus might also need help from other survivors. Which is how you reach map pressure. Yet, if you chase a loop god, a „rush“ is more than likely to happen. It’s more due to chasing for too long, not keeping track of gens or scaring them away from gens u wanna keep (those closer together), gen rush to me is often a myth because as a killer you actually try to protect an area and try to make it insecure. The simplest way to put pressure is tunneling tho it’s cheap.


    Let’s talk tunneling: In DbD you are actually granted 3 life’s which is unlike to other games. Yet the killer denies it, which is the main reason causing frustrations on surv side. Tunneling is used as a strategy to delay the game for lateron - the simplest for the killer and the most unfun for the surv player as he - let’s be honest - the surv doesn’t actually have a chance unless other survs come in to help (which will be ignored or abused by the killer) or he reached palette paradise. At one point you have to kill. That’s right. But here is back to my original post: when do I decide to tunnel? 

    Found someone first seconds and downed him fast and make it a 1 minute game for him because „gg ez“? 


    Devs talk about a balanced match when it’s 2 dying and 2 surviving which is sure to happen if you keep pressure on more than one player. But currently I’m experiencing more slaughters: 4k all over the place with the chance of one making the end game (definitely true on meta killers). It’s that specific mindset of players thinking they have to get a 4k to „win“ the game. On my matches I rarely see 3-4 escaping - and I try to avoid tunneling actively. Survs are supposed to do gens early. Because that’s when they don’t have to help others and actually got the time. There are also the emblem system and such. We could probably discuss forever which isn’t my topic though. 


    I’m not talking about those tactics in general, I’m talking about attitude. Let’s say gens would take longer... killers would still tunnel, because it’s „10x easier“ which is pretty much what asymmetric means. It would just result in survs being slaughtered. We can blame the game design. We can blame balance. But when I see all these insults and in game behaviours, it’s hard to believe they don’t want to slaughter just to do so. There is only the devs who can prevent it with game design or us deciding on how we approach certain situations. Like in this case setting you’re own gaming experience way above others - and to some it might be disputable - by an unfair solution. 


    Again: I’m not onto balance. Im onto players decisions and intentions. Which in this example was more specific on tunneling, but there are way more examples than just that.

  • ReddRedd Member Posts: 826

    A win is a pip and a loss is a depip. A safety pip is a tie.

    In the end it basically comes down to the idea that if I play "fair"; then it is almost never reciprocated. Since I don't play video games to throw games on purpose, and I don't want to play Nurse, Spirit, and Hillbilly to the exclusion of all other killers; I am not able to play "fair" until after I've already pipped.

    Again, I think this is a design problem. In fact, I think the entire design problem behind DBD is that games heavily snowball one way or the other. A 2K in every game I play with any killer I want to use is not and never will be a reasonably achievable goal at my current level of play. The vast vast majority of games with killers like the Trapper or Wraith have me snowballing early and getting to end game collapse or me failing to snowball and only getting a 1K. 2Ks are a relative minority just because of the game's death efficiency problem.

  • ReddRedd Member Posts: 826

    Put a different way, DBD has a major "death efficiency problem" where it tends to skew towards the more extreme match results. This is because every 25% of the survivor team lost is essentially 33% of their potential generator progress lost against a good killer. So survivors lose a disproportionate amount of their ability to escape as soon as a single person dies. And it is very common for generator progress to stop almost completely after two people die due to how the new End Game works. So while a good killer cannot stop a full team of good survivors from doing gens, it becomes significantly easier for them to protect gens once the first survivor dies.

    What behavior needs to do in my opinion is find a way to slow down the game and/or allow M1 killers to apply more map pressure. After that, they need to give survivors some small buff each time someone is sacrificed so that two to three survivors can still power the exit gates.

  • endikuxendikux Member Posts: 4
    edited June 2019

    Listening to grown adults talking about "toxic this" and "hate messages" that is both hilarious and depressing at the same time. Sticks and stones people. Sticks and stones.


    Try playing better than your opponents or being a useful teammate. That matters more than your widdle hurt fweewings.

  • saminationsamination Member Posts: 310

    Seems no different than the day it started to be honest. My best advice would be to close the chat box and only allow friends to message you. Otherwise, don't complain about salty people. They are 10 and/or running on pure emotion. You guys do need to stop with this 'tunneling' BS. That's the equivalent of saying survivors 'gen rush'. Killers are there to kill you not be your buddy. When you play with your friends, you already have the upper hand via communication. The killer may be trying to compensate for that. When you play killer you need to get thicker skin. Nobody can upset you except you. You can't change peoples behavior, but you can change how you react to them.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 4,570

    You are talking about different things like they are the same.

    Hate messages/verbal abuse is not okay. Report those messages. Or deactivate messages, that's what I suggest.

    T-bagging/flashlight clicki clacki may be rude. But the devs don't consider it as unsportsmanlike behaviour (otherwise it would be bannable), so ignore it.

    Camping, tunneling, moris are game mechanics as much as hook sabos, flashlight saves etc. That has nothing to do with "being unfair". Unfair would be hacks, cheats, exploits.

    You are playing SWF, which is by far the most powerful role in the game. Don't blame the killer for just doing their job a.k.a killing you. You have items, perks and SWF buddies to protect you.

  • LuuneLuune Member Posts: 43

    @samination I get you. 

    But I disagree on disabling the chat. For me as a player ignoring the problem does not make it go away. I’ll just not be able to see the problem making me one more person looking away. It’s not single messages I disapprove with, it is the overall tone. 

    It might be due to me personally but I don’t see why people have to behave that way. I tend to be a very reflective and considerable person, so I’m just not supportive of negativity in whatever way - other games have it too, but DbD is an extreme. So I get it off my chest and open a Discussion to see other people’s thoughts on it :)

  • LuuneLuune Member Posts: 43

    @NoShinyPony

    Not exactly true. I still regard tbagging as being a bad sports. I mean its fine if you do it to be funny but it doesn’t make it right if you use it for the purpose of poking others - at that point its getting toxic which is what I’m referring to. You wouldn’t do it in a football match either or even think about it. Why is it a thing in online matches? Just because you are mostly anonymous?

    Back to tunneling: i still see it as unfair. The game is basically over for that person and if unlucky in no time. Which again wouldn’t be an issue if it wasn’t for the game telling me I have 3 potential life’s which get denied by another players decision not going for someone else but that player - summing up: game design vs. players choice.

    Like: I get why people are doing it, i just don’t approve to it as it doesn’t seem to be meant that way due to the games design - yet a fairer approach isn’t really promoted or rewarded (neither by the devs, nor by the players). I feel like balancing it in a way that favours the killer (faster catch ups, less loops etc.) would not change a killers way of going in for it. 

    And i do also play solo survivor. On there it’s even worse than it is with 1-2 mates. 


    I see it’s an issue with the design but it doesn’t change how people act even when they are given a choice. 

    As again: these are behaviours increasing around events (not only talking the „tunneling“ here). Games seem to be a bit smoother and fun for both sides once the events are over. 

  • LuuneLuune Member Posts: 43

    I've started playing on a Blood Hunt when Clown and Kate came out. It was rough... but the current matches are even worse.

  • RoKruegerRoKrueger Member Posts: 1,371

    I like the state of the game as it is. I love to crush toxic survivors and laugh at their salty insults. I love to camp when I see the rest of the survivors around the hooked person trying to get my attention. I love to identify the weakest survivor of the bunch and eliminate it as fast as possible so the rest of the match becomes easier. And I love to mori the last survivor next to the hatch after I've looked for it for 5 minutes with that survivor on my shoulder (I've done that a couple of times).

    Please don't take away my fun :-)

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,487

    Without reading now the the pages long after your first posting @Luune , I would have like to play against survivors as your swf group.

    I was a Legion main until I had stop playing with the Legion patch. But I had never facemap, besides 2 times where I was in a bad mood and also survivors had try to annoy me with flashlights.

    My endgame chat was also mostly ok-nice, besides a few weirdos.

    Don't give up, I am sure sooner or later you will also meet a killer who doesn't need to facecamp and who knows? Should bhvr rework the Legion so that this killer makes finally fun again, I come back again and we can maybe make a match^^.

  • DarkskiesDarkskies Member Posts: 1,131

    @RoKrueger me and yourself have very different attitudes but i can really respect how you play would love to play against you as i do feel you do fit the killer and seem to be that role and enjoy that role.

    I get a feeling that you play decently and have a good understanding so toying like taking people to the hatch to mori them is just your signature So would be hella interesting to play against plus no matter what you did id say gg and wp.

    I just dont understand why people are horrible like maybe you can help me understand if yould be so kind.

    I had a clown mori spam me for 10 minutes and chuck bottles at me in-between doing this.. My question is why act like this?

    Plenty of killers i have had face camping slashing me and nodding at me i honstly dont care about face camping but the repeated slashing and nodding why?

    🐷❤️

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