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My NOED Rework---An Earned Power Play

HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 2,657

If you get 8/7/6 hooks before the last Generator is completed a broken totem will be rebuilt into a Hex totem granting you a 4% speed boost and gives Survivors the Exposed status effect until the totem is broken. Once the totem is destroyed the Collapse begins. If no totems have been broken during the trial a random dull totem will be selected.


No One Escapes Death is a problem for Solo Survivors, like myself. The main problem we/they have is that no one knows if anyone has been breaking totems, they can break 2 but can't find the others and pray that someone else did them. My idea turns this problem into a counter, if 1 Survivors breaks maybe 2 totems then at the end of the match one of those totems comes back in the form of NOED and that Survivor knows where those totems were and will instantly go back to see which one it was. If all the totems were destroyed then, again all the Survivors know the locations of the totems so they can go back and search each one. Now if the Survivors were lazy then they run into the same problem they have now and not know where NOED is and that's their fault for lazy.

Now on the Killers' side a lot of players don't like the perk because it's not earned, it rewards bad play, you lost the game but you got a huge reward and to some that feels cheap. Others don't like that it's very powerful or too common so they steer away from it. This change makes sure that you have to earn that power, you need to be at least decent in the match in order to get that Exposed status. [BAD WORD] Killers who can't win without this perk will no longer be winning because they need to git gud, they need to show the Entity that they are worthy of that ultimate power.

Now I also added in that the Collapse starts when the totem is destroyed as a bonus. The Collapse is meant to push out players who won't leave and this perk is about no one escaping so I thought it would up the intensity of the last moments for the trial. Sure your totem was destroyed but that doesn't mean you got completely dominated, the Collapse starts and they need to leave. I don't think it's overpowered because a lot of people open the Gates when they see NOED is active anyway because it's really dangerous to stick around. I was debating to include that 30 seconds was taken off the timer as well but thought it might be too much.

Also please note that I have nothing against NOED, I love the perk and salty Survivors who complain nonstop about it disgust me. But I am not naive and I do know that Solo Survivors have a difficult time with getting all the totems because they have no information like SWF do. I also did this because I like doing it, it's really fun :)

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Comments

  • ClocksoClockso Member Posts: 507
    edited June 29

    the idea of having to hook survivors multiple times is a very good idea, it proves that you did your best trying to hook survivors but the generators got repaired, however having to hook survivors 6 times can be a bit tough and the fact that even with your hard work of hooking survivors i feel like this perk doesnt need to be a hex perk

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    If your case for changing NOED rests entirely on a survivor-sympathy card, why post it in the killer sub-forum where it won't be welcome?

    The issue killers have with unearned matched results stems from almost every killer having an awfully low skill-ceiling, that limits how much use they can get out of any particular killer with practice and that killers have very little control over matches but must play a reactive role. This does not translate into any perk with an 'unearned reward' for killers being a problem, especially if the overall game design itself remains one of survivors doing and killers responding.

    NOED bucks this because it has to, under the current design of the game and the meta which survivors have developed and stuck to for 3 years now. Your suggestion removes NOED as a secondary-objective that is optional and lenghtens matches(something frequently requested even now but by people who don't acknowledge it as an already implemented feature), as something that survivors are supposed to have as a risk for not doing the optional objectives. It also removes a 'rubber-band' feature-option for killers(I mean a 'rubber-band' as a term to describe the opposite of snow-balling, something which gives the losing-side a chance of a comeback). That's all very well, but invites broader discussion about the similar feature-options for survivors which have become far more numerous and dominate the game.

  • DemonDaddyDemonDaddy Member Posts: 1,486

    Noed is a punishment for survivors not doing totems so I don't see much reason to give the killer conditions. I can't call it a killer reward because they have no say in whether it activates or not. I play strictly solo and have never really had an issue with it, worst case is you do them and get bp or you do them and it stops Noed.

  • KillermainBTWm8KillermainBTWm8 Member Posts: 3,322

    Dull totems would be useless then, a nerf for NOED might be considered once issues like the genrush are fixed but not in the current state of the game.

  • ReikoMoriReikoMori Member Posts: 1,226

    Depending on the quality of the survivors and the current state of the game. You could be trying really hard and not get 4 hooks, let alone 6 hooks. 6 hooks either two survivors dead or 3 survivors two hooked. either scenario usually mean the game is in the endgame phase. If you have a team of extra sweaty survivors then you may not even get that playing your best. It isn't as if gens can't be done in 80s by a solo survivor. If you've ever had a situation where 2-3 gens pop during a single chase then you know how important it is to have something making survivors slow themselves down.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109


    @HatCreature feel free to give it a read. This is not the first time this type of convo has come up.

  • Ihitscenekids23Ihitscenekids23 Member Posts: 23

    Survivors ALWAYS want the game to go in their favor newsflash there is a way to counter NOED its called small game and second you should be doing totems for points anyway stop complaining and get good

  • PickCollinsPickCollins Member Posts: 389

    Noed should be removed. I know I know but before the "Survivior main spotted" comments come in, I'm a filthy Nurse main. So killers as well as Surviviors hate me


    Noed, simply put, does not reward the killer for good gameplay or punish the Survivior for bad gameplay. It rewards killers for bad gameplay and punishes Surviviors for good gameplay. Let's think about the trigger conditions and the dichotomy that is established.


    How many totems need to be cleansed for NOED to not trigger? All 5. That means Surviviors can do 4/5 totems and Noed will still trigger. So there's a lot of effort that needs to be put into countering Noed. Let's juxtapose this with what the killer needs to do in order to trigger Noed. Which is...let the Surviviors complete the gens. This is btw, something you are NOT supposed to do. You are not supposed to let Surviviors complete their win condition in order to escape as a team. Noed allows you to let them complete their objective and rewards you for failing, which to me is gross.


    Survivors have to be victims of toxic behavior to earn decisive strike and they have to work for Mettle of Man. They have to have a friend who is a victim of toxic behavior for borrowed time. Killers that ride everything on Noed are not smart killers trying to punish the genrushing toxic squadettes clicking their flashlights at poor bubba's and Wraiths who have to deal with windows. They're plain and simply put, bad at the game. And I specifically recall killer mains as a whole saying that BHVR shouldn't balance this game around people who are bad at the game.

    Oh right. I forgot. Ur only bad if ur a Survivior main. If you consistently can't even get a kill with killers it's just bc Surviviors are OP, right?

  • PickCollinsPickCollins Member Posts: 389

    That's not a fair comparison. Adrenalines trigger is contingent on survivors playing well. Ergo it is an earned perk (Albeit frustrating to deal with). Noeds trigger is contingent on the killer failing and not playing well.

  • RaeKallawayRaeKallaway Member Posts: 1
    edited June 30

    I love this idea but I think it needs to be reworked. Have NOED be a non-hex perk and the new condition could be for every 2 survivors that are hooked during the entire match, once all generators are powered, the killer receives an "exposed stack" (killers can get up to 4 hits with exposed attached to there m1) and 1.25 (or 1 I'm not sure) % movement speed buff up to 2/3/4 stacks (can only receive 2 hook stacks per survivor so no farming one survivor for 3 stacks).

    My reasoning being that you can still get 4 exposed hits and by all means, kill the entire team. But killing the entire team probably won't happen because with current NOED it hardly happens now. The second survivors see that you have NOED they will turn tale. No more countering by cleansing totems and if the killer did really well, he can get up to 4 hits and 5% movement increase! No one can escape death. And the killer has to be down one perk the entire game so it is still strong as normal but now it doesn't reward bad killers and they will at least earn the kill. It also punishes killers who camp because less opportunities to get stacks for noed. I feel like this is better for both parties because it adds a skill element to the game for survivors as well. They have to count the hooks the killer has and can maybeeeee tank exposed hits, but the killer can always camp at the end for the kills. New NOED may have to make mettle of man not trigger but it may also force plays to take more protection hits so they can get mettle of man, I'm not sure what should be done about the "borrowed time" effect survivors can get. The reason I think it should maybe not trigger is because the new NOED I have proposed can only trigger an exposed effect 4 times max. Maybe New NOED could propose a New keyword called like "No Escape" or something. New NOED could be good for both sides and less benifitial to bad killers.

    I don't know it's just an idea, I don't like the design around current NOED so maybe this is a better idea? Can't be countered by cleansing but it takes effort to get and the killer can still get stacks after all gens are powered. It will reward aggressive gameplay and it isn't an auto include perk because of its nature. May reward tunneling for stacks tho which could be bad but I'm just tossing ideas out.

    Post edited by RaeKallaway on
  • MEATSOLDIERMEATSOLDIER Member Posts: 1

    you say this with such confidence. as if this game is actually balanced around killers reaching their win condition.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 3,691

    @PickCollins Actually no. If the survivors have gen rushed and NOED activates then the survivors haven’t played well at all. It means they were arrogant and negligent.

  • RasinbranRasinbran Member Posts: 76

    Noed is in the same boat as Ruin where it's an absolute crutch for almost every killer.

  • Well_Placed_HexTotemWell_Placed_HexTotem Member Posts: 652

    End game perks exist for a reason. The end game. Survivors reaching end game isn't always the result of "bad play" from the killer. You said you're a Nurse main which is fine, but Nurse breaks the game and a good Nurse doesn't have to worry about any of the stuff every other killer has to deal with. Mostly, loops. If I'm using an M1 killer and I'm not running Ruin or it gets destroyed 15 seconds into the game, then unless I got amazingly lucky map RNG, I'm [BAD WORD]. I might be able to stop the survivors from knocking out all five gens, but in the red ranks where I am now, they're going to gen rush me into oblivion. It's not "bad play" for a killer to be in this situation. It's called the meta of the game. And thats ignoring end game builds.

    Also, it's not toxic to have DS triggered on you. If I hook someone and they quickly Deliverance off the hook, is it really toxic for the killer to go back and down them? If a gate is opened and I have a survivor hooked near, is it toxic for me to go after the injured survivor if they're unhooked? Same with BT. Yeah, the main use for that perk was to combat campers, but it gets triggered many times even if you aren't camping.

    Both sides have end game perks. You aren't "bad" for using them lol

  • PickCollinsPickCollins Member Posts: 389

    Except as I said already, the trigger for NOED isn't contingent on the killer playing well at all. It's based solely on the Surviviors. Yet an attempt to remove Noed from the equation can still be for naught. As I said already, survivors have to cleanse all 5 totems to prevent Noed, which means they can cleanse 4/5 totems and still have to deal with Noed. Meanwhile the killer doesn't have to do anything to get Noed. Ergo it isn't an "earned" perk. It's a given perk. Now gimme one sec to address someone else.

    The term "genrush" has become so arbitrary at this point. If ur chasing one Survivior, what's the other 3 supposed to do? Sit around with their thumb up their ass until you hook that one? Doing the gens is the Surviviors main objective. You wouldn't call a killer who hooks 3 Surviviors in the first minute a "hookrusher" would you? Bc apparently to you, survivors doing their main objective quickly is arrogant and negligent, but a killer doing their main objective quickly is...just playing well? I love the double standard.

    If Surviviors do 2 gens while the killer is chasing one Survivior they're called "genrushers". If a killer hooks 3 Surviviors while the last one is on a gen, why is that guy not called a "hookrusher"?

    Back to you, your point about endgame perks is true. They exist and should be allowed to be used. However, Noed is the only endgame perk that you don't have to do anything and still get. You're rewarded for letting them do the gens. Not like blood Warden, where ur rewarded for hooking someone when the gates are open, which is fine bc then the trigger is contingent on YOUR actions, it's an earned perk.

    Like I also said previously, Surviviors can cleanse 4/5 totems and still get hit with Noed. The killer can AFK in the corner and Surviviors will still get hit with Noed. That instantly means that the perk punishes Surviviors for completing their primary objective and rewards killers for failing theirs. Ergo, yes it is the definition of a "crutch" perk. It pads bad gameplay to help bad players 4k in circumstances where they didn't deserve it.

    And to your point about DS makes no sense. If you down someone who deliveranced off the hook 30 seconds ago, then yeah you were being toxic. That's called "tunnelling" and it's a gameplay style that DS is designed to punish you for. Ergo yeah you gotta be pretty toxic for DS to trigger. If you are gonna call downing a Survivior Within 60 seconds of them getting unhooked not tunnelling then I've got no words. The only times you get hit with D strike is when you deserve it.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    A crutch that relies on a dice-roll that is less than 50% favourable, is not a crutch.

    NOED is made 50/50 by virtue of there being two exit gates; on most maps they can never spawn in a position where they can both be guarded at the same time, even by Huntress or Billy. It is pushed below 50% by being a Hex perk that can be defeated before it activates and the possibility of the hatch.

    NOED's de facto function is as an insurance perk; where survivors who are not that good but managed to focus down gens can have their plan back-fire. A survivor will only lose to NOED because they made a major screw-up.

    Ruin is more complicated in that there is a less definitive measure of whether it has served it's purpose by the time it is cleansed. We don't know how quickly gens are done on average from the start of a match even if we know how long each gen takes, nor even a comparison of how it changes when Ruin is in use. It is however still countered by survivors that know what they're doing or are prepared to use an exploit the devs admit is unintended but they have no plans to ever change.

    To editorialise; survivors have such an easy time in this game that in order to have fun, they take greater risks, always increasing. These perks mainly serve a purpose in boosting those risks so survivors are more likely to make errors. They are some of the only tools killers have for this; killers lack control over the matches in practically every other way.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 3,691

    Ok @PickCollins semantics. I’ll rephrase that to: If survivors have focused purely on just gen repairs and  then find themselves up against NOED, it STILL means the survivors were arrogant and negligent.

  • PigMainBigBrainPigMainBigBrain Member Posts: 410

    You play nurse? Thats gross, your killer ignores 90% of the games mechanics and dynamics.... could it even be considered a real killer?

  • Mister_xDMister_xD Member Posts: 3,042

    we really do not need a NOED nerf, thanks.

  • PickCollinsPickCollins Member Posts: 389

    I still can't bring myself to agree with you because credence to Noed can be given, but survivors can still get hit by it. Like I said previously, Surviviors can cleanse 4 out of the 5 dull totems on the map and still get hit with Noed. To me, that isn't fair. Especially when you consider that the counter conditions make NOED the safest hex perk in the entire game to use.


    The counter conditions for NOED are so stringent, but what are the trigger conditions? What does the killer have to do to EARN Noed? Does the killer have to hook survivors? Do they have to get so many hits? Do they need to defend gens? In fact, they have to lose in order for NOED to go off. This was the exact issue people had with old decisive strike, was that the counterplay was finnicky and required too much effort, and it rewarded the other side for playing bad. Why is Noed different? Bc you can cleanse totems to prevent it? You could juggle/slug to prevent old D strike. I don't see why killers don't have the same issue with Noed that they did with old D strike.


    Could it possibly be bc it benefits them? Pffffft. Nahhhhhhhh. Hypocrisy is a "Surviviors only" thing

  • Mister_xDMister_xD Member Posts: 3,042

    @PickCollins

    ill make it quick:

    NOED serves as a punishment for Survivors who screwed up their secondary objective.

    it can be destroyed without even activating, which is enough of a downside for this mediocre perk. it is NOT the equivalent to old DS, since it HAS quite a lot of counterplay, which has not been the case with old DS.

  • PickCollinsPickCollins Member Posts: 389

    Noed also serves as a reward for killers who screwed up their primary AND secondary objective.

  • Mister_xDMister_xD Member Posts: 3,042

    @PickCollins

    NOED serves as a gamble the killer does in which he eigther gets a powerup when he is about to lose or has to play the entire game with only 3 perk slots.

    and no matter what you say, it primarily serves as a punishment for survivors who screwed up their secondary objective. AFTER they screwed up, the killer gets his second chance.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    If we accept the argument that 'NOED rewards the killer for screwing-up' then what we are accepting is the notion that a killer may not have a feature that enables rubber-banding.

    This automatically invites comparison with survivors having many such options in kind. This leads us to concluding after much pointless debate that 'none should have benefits which they have not adequately earned'.

    This means that in principle, all rubber-band features should be removed from the game and only snow-balling features remain. This would make the overall game balance considerably more frustrating, with people more likely to DC because they know they aren't likely to win: who ever is doing well a minute into a match might have an insurmountable lead.

  • JunkratJunkrat Member Posts: 4
    edited August 10

    ...

    Post edited by Junkrat on
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