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Please stop with the “rework Legion” nonsense.

He’s fine, and now needs to be played as intended. There are plenty of players using current Legion having a great time with him, and not encountering any problems winning and ranking up. 

The changes were both healthy and absolutely necessary. I speculate BHVR were just too lenient with the initial state of Legion in order to gently get players head around the concept of injuring all (or as many survivors as possible) in quick succession in order to be most effective with him. 

Now you don’t get a choice. 

Get used to it. 

Get over it. 

Or just move on. 

Legion is fine.

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Comments

  • miaasmamiaasma Member Posts: 911

    i think that legion should be tweaked with regards to vault speed and addons

    but yes, the idea that he should be reworked is totally ludicrous, especially when people are looking at how he was before the rework in a favourable light. such people aren't the ones BHVR is balancing for, fortunately

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,103

    -The ones that are lamenting the removal are the majority. Thousands of pages have been written, hundrets of threads have been open and I don't know how many real life discussion have follow on this patch.

    So... can we please stop telling the people what they have to do and what not? Because that is pretty selfish.

    -Many Legions have not exploit or use the op addons, but many Legions had fun with the pre patch Legion.

    -The pre patch Legion had counterplay, if she had not exploit. I haven even write how and link a video, but ... You had find excuses for yourself why you don't won't to listen to either the text, or the video and then it surprises me not any longer that you think that the Legion had no counterplay.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,103

    Well, can you tell me then, why some survivors had know how to counter a Legion, then there is no counterplay? :). (I know... I know... Those Legions were bad killers. Nice excusment have you there for not adapting to a killer that is different as the default m1 killer^^)

    You don't get it or?

    Just because you have not know how to counter a Legion, didn't mean, that nobody knows it.

    And in multiplayer games you should never say never. Sometimes devs listen to their community.

    Besides, the dc guys are no argument. DCing people are toxic in general and dcing people should be banned, like exploiters. They should not be supported, or you ending up with a game full of dcing people -_-.

  • I left to Clown. He is my main now along with Trapper. I hope they don't rework Clown, because i am having a lot of fun and success with him.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,103

    I have write a long how to how to counter the Legion..

    I have link a over 20 minutes video of how to counter Legion...

    You should have played the Legion pre patch against red ranks and you would know that there was counterplay. Don't find always excuses ffs -_-.

    That here not a real life job. It's ok if someone not knows what he to do if talk about something specific.

    DC is never and was never ok. Everyone who says something different - no matter the circumstances - supports those people and at least I will never support people that are so toxic like dcing guys are.

    I don't care why somebody comes with it. If Legion, Spirit, Meyers, that he had a bad day, or whatever... Just no!

    Tolerating toxic dcing people is directly responsible for the dcing mess, dbd stucks in today.

  • Also that is incorrect. I have shown to not care anymore and only want the miss penalty removed. Is that anything like stab stab stab till die? I can go franks mixtape if i want to do that.

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 3,298

    OG Legion was fun, yes their power was too much for this particular game but they were fun. This new Legion is balanced but they went too far with it, some changes they made were completely unnecessary and only served to nerf him into the ground.

    I really feel that if they brought back Legion's FF speed, Vault speed and go back to the reduced duration for FF then he'd be fine. His Deep Wounds is still crap though, maybe if his TR was back to 24 meters it wouldn't be that bad.

    With those proposed changes you have the OG Legion BUT without the annoying DW he used to have, he'd be faster and still dependent on the Duration add-ons but he'd catch up quick. Legion wouldn't be able to Moonwalk but he would be able to play with his TR that would go down to 16m with M&A, DW would go back to being a threat but would it be nowhere near as annoying or inescapable as it used to be.

    Right now Legion is crap, I love Legion and I will always love them but they are not as fun as they used to be. I don't feel powerful playing them anymore, the adrenaline rush of chasing down your prey is no longer there, it feels like running in mud struggling to catch up and then running out of breath before reaching them.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,103

    The Clown can make fun, but after the Legion and Freddy rework... I wouldn't bet on something, that they will never touch him.

    But would I still playing today, I would make Meyers to my new main - I think -, or maybe buying the Hag with shards and then go with her.

  • ReikoMoriReikoMori Member Posts: 1,308

    You have scatter method counterplay which would leave Legion with only one target. There was also straight line running method that was actually quite effective. Legion prepatch could also still be looped, but survivors had to have optimal movement. Legion's speed just increased the danger of trying to get greedy with short loops. Legion still had to respect long loops with multiple vaults even at the increased speed.

    Calling out Legion for damaging the Deep Wound bar on repeated attacks isn't something that the devs didn't want to have happen. They just didn't expect that would be seen as the more enticing way to play. They still want the mechanic as they still kept Frank's Mixtape and Stab Wound Study the same in overall effect with the values changed. Not that it matters much when again, no one is asking for Prepatch Deep Wounds back at this point considering that Deep Wounds pretty much is a waste of space that keeps breaking in the hands of killers anyway.

    It would be much better to not have it or have it function differently than it does when used by BT.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,086

    @miaasma at best what your saying shows that the specific execution of the pre-patch legion lacked counterplay. That does not mean that the arc-type as a whole that pre-patch legion had couldn't. In fact I've already made a thread detailing how you could go about making the core concept of the pre-patch legion tweaked to have both counterplay and kill power (Aka: Both of the things Legion lacked. Even now he lacks serious kill power).

  • Hag is the better version of Trapper. Her traps can't be disarmed and they are much less visible. I seem to like Hag more than Trapper. Trapper you can't really snowball but Hag can. Hag does require strategy and placement skills though. What makes a great Hag is that they are unexpected and frightening, which makes them a Nurse basically.

  • Damn these games suck lately. I have gotten 4k's and i have black pipped only or depipped. And now i get toxic swfs who i cant keep up with because their 2 instaheals and then call me out for tunneling when they want to be tunneled.

  • miaasmamiaasma Member Posts: 911

    franks mixtape and stab wounds study is the worst possible thing you can do with current legion, it's even less efficient than the m2 spam cheese was before. it probably shouldn't even exist in that form, but it's so unequivocally bad that nobody does it. and since legion whiffing causes them to lose their power, spinning them or window faking them and making them miss actually has consequences now, making this strategy even weaker. it's really only there for the losers who want to relive their pre-rework legion spamming glory days, but good luck making it work because it's absolutely horrendous. hopefully both of those addons get reworked eventually, along with the rest of them so they aren't borderline useless

    legion prepatch could not be looped. it ignored every single looping mechanic in the game. this was why so many people played it; pallets didn't matter, you'd drop it, they'd respect it and vault it. windows didn't matter, they'd just vault after you. all you could do against legion is W game, but you also couldn't lose them because then you'd bleed out (and they'd be able to track you with blood, even without actively moonwalking), so you were stuck in this "keep distance but not THAT much distance" state of running that almost always resulted in you going down unless someone pulled aggro or the legion player was especially horrible. any "legion counterplay" posted on this forum just boils down to what to do against people who were just so bad that even the hand-holdy mechanics of pre-rework legion weren't enough to get them downs

    scatter method isn't counterplay because legion ultimately just chases one person, and that person was afforded no answer to legion's power. sure, it means they won't deep wound everyone, but whoever the legion decided to chase was screwed regardless of personal skill level

  • That is correct. I have used both of them and everytime they mended infront of me.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,103

    It was possible to loop a Legion... Sort of, but it was really tricky and mostly only seen on high ranks. For a reason, because as said before it was not easy.

    And : -"any "legion counterplay" posted on this forum just boils down to what to do against people who were just so bad that even the hand-holdy mechanics of pre-rework legion weren't enough to get them downs" - that is just a lazy excusment for yourself miaasama.

    It shows to every experienced Legion player and also survivor that you was and that you are still not willing to acknowledge that there was counterplay.

    No matter how the reallity really was - you hate just the pre patch Legion and you think not even for a secound that some problems you maybe had with the pre patch Legion was, because you was not willing or able to learn this counterplay.

    A thousand videos, survivor and killer opinions and how tos wouldn't be able to persuade you and sorry, but the devs shouldn't listen to players who are learn resistent.

    When I think back on my time in sc:bw, hl1 and wow clans/guilds - they all would have show me the door, if I had that attitude.

    That's why I have sometimes problems to stay calm by specific positings.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,086

    Again. All of that is only circumstantially true based off of the specific execution. The core idea of an agile speedster arctype is not inherently problematic so long as it sticks to proper mechanics of burst movement which boil down to having moments of slowness connected to the moments of speed.

    This is why the Wraith, Nurse, Spirit and Pig all have a startup of some kind before their ability's. THAT'S what it is that pre-patch legion was missing. Not a slower speed or penalties (I mean he was missing those too but they aren't as important), but a window of opportunity.

    When the Nurse charges her blink you are given a moment to be somewhere unexpected or to make some juke. This means she has counterplay (even if it is extremely unreliable).

    Wraith and Pig both have a startup for a relatively short range burst movement ability which also is loud and gives enough time that a Survivor can often outrun the Killer overall so long as they are smart about it and have a short lead.

    Spirit doesn't have a clear que for when her startup begins but she makes up for it by having the most juke potential and still has a lengthy startup even if it isn't telegraphed in a chase.

    Legion actually has a lot of the groundwork for a lot of this stuff. Things like not seeing blood and scratchmarks are along the lines of exactly the kind of thing that lead to Killers like the Spirit (because scratchmarks are the root of all evil).

    You can absolutely Juke a Killer that can't see scratchmarks, that just leaves the important question of when you can do the juke? This is where pre-patch legion has a problem, since you can just make sure you can maintain LoS with the survivor for the entire ability duration by possitioning yourself properly before hand, you can still do this even now.

    However this is not an unsolvable problem. You could easily have a moment where the Legion stops to look straight up or down when he activates feral frenzy. A moment to break LoS with none of the usual tools for tracking you once you do is plenty of counterplay for the mechanics Legion has, and can be further compounded by other mechanics if needed quite easily.

  • miaasmamiaasma Member Posts: 911

    i don't really understand what you're arguing against

    i'm specifically saying that the specific execution of legion was poorly handled and will never be reintroduced. i'm not opposed to legion being tweaked or changed to be made more viable, in fact, i've repeatedly said (including once in this thread) that legion's vault speed should be increased and his addons should be reworked. and i'm sure there are other things that could be done

    if we're still talking about "juking" pre-patch legion, juking the legion would actually work against you, because it would cause you to bleed out. meaning you'd have to stay where you are to mend and if you didn't have iron will the legion could easily find you if they looked. this was one of many issues the previous frenzy/deep wound interaction caused

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2019

    Those changes seem good, especially the DW one. I believe that others are wanting Legion to be fun again, but in different ways. You know what i want to be removed, so no point in repeating that. But i have a good reasoning for this.

    If we make Legion's distance gained after vaulting, we'd have to keep the miss penalty because it is easier for Legion to miss but it is also very easier for Legion to lunge to the survivor after vaulting, which in a word means that dodging his stab will be the only way to counter him. I wouldn't want this, because it punishes other Legion players, such as myself, who want to miss on purpose. And there's also the fact that lag could possibly be the reason Legion misses. So i think that, like Odimm said, old vault speed should be reverted, but on top should reduce the distance, preferably to the same as survivor, gained after vaulting. This way, if Survivor has enough distance between the Legion and themselves, they can still make it to another window or pallet after they have vaulted.

    But that is not all. Because Legion's speed is slow, it is totally possible to run away from the Legion when they are in Feral Frenzy. The above change will not matter at all if the Legion can not get close to the survivor without having enough time to hit them. So to counter that, i will have to ask for Legion's speed to be reverted too, or 5.4 ms instead. This should make it possible to catch up to every Survivor in Killer Instinct with enough stamina (gauge) left. However, if the Survivor has ran for a pallet or a window, they should be able to have enough time.

    These changes, alongside with Odimm's DW change and fatigue change, should bring the Killer to a counterable but also very fun and unique level.

    I also do want to say, this is NOT for red rank skill. We all know that red ranks don't have variety, but Legion was designed so that he was fun to play as but not good either. I'm definitely not suggesting Legion should stay a bad Killer like he is right now.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,086

    I'm contesting the claim that pre-patch legions arc type (aka: the thing that other people on this thread ACTUALLY want) is a perfectly valid arc type and can absolutely be fun and enjoyable.

    Also juking only works against you if you presuppose that he's already stabbed you. If you dodge the initial hit then it doesn't matter what the deep wounds mechanics are.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,086

    Basically I'm contesting this.

    Or more specifically the line "there shouldn't be a killer like pre-patch legion".

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,103

    Depends on how many hits you had catch. If you had catch no, or just 1 hit, there was still enough time to reach a safe space. You have seen in the video, good tactgics to avoid hits, but I need to admit, that parts of those tactics were hard to master for a survivor - though not impossible how some survivors have proof it.

    What me matters, so I could life with it, when they just would undone the frenzy speed and take out the penalty for a miss hit, but I have only fun in mind.

    I am not one those killers who like to kill 4 survivors every match. I just like to have fun again while I am chasing a survivor.

    So... If they undone something on deep wounds, tr, tracking abilitiys etc.... I honestly don't care, as long as I can run fast. For me it would be even ok, if they would stick a rubber knife in the Legion hand's as long, as I can have my fun again with the core frenzy ability.

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