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This great Legion idea solves his problems and also gives him power and enjoyment to play

NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685
edited July 2019 in General Discussions

I was scrolling in The Legion category searching for good ideas to put Legion back in it's fun state. Guess what? These guys found a way to maintain AND even higher the fun in that killer and make him completely balanced. The thing that stunned me more about this post was the fact that everything is VERY WELL justified as you guys can see.

So, Iiterally copied what @NuclearBurrito wrote because it says it all and the discussion was closed because the rework launch of the Legion and I want to know what other players think of it. The explanation is quoted right underneath this post (also written by them).

Add-ons are on the 2nd page due to an error, sorry.

The starting point to make these changes is reverting the update to Legion and deep wounds.

ALL the credit goes to @DarkWo1f997 @dadamek8 @NuclearBurrito, Remember to check them out.

These changes are all intended to go together:

  • Frenzy now has a 0.75 second startup during which time the Legion stops moving and looks straight up while roaring. This can be easily heard by nearby survivors.
  • Vaulting a window or pallet during Frenzy now drains 15% of his power
  • Missed attacks have a 70% cooldown reduction instead of 100%. You will need Unrelenting to get a 100% reduction.
  • Deep Wounds now bleeds out depending on distance to the Killer. The farther the faster. This is not effected by terror radius.

0-16 meters = 0 charges per second

17-24 = 1 charges per second

25-32 = 2 charges per second

32+ = 3 charges per second

A survivor is downed at 0 charges and starts with 60 when hit the first time (affected by addons) and will not go below 10 charges while mending. If it is already below 10 it will instead just pause.

  • Stabbing a survivor already in Deep wounds drains 50% of the REMAINING duration rounding up with a minimum of 15 charges removed.
  • Frenzy must be at least 60% recharged in order to be activated (9 seconds of charge from 0%)
  • M1 attacks no longer drain frenzy
  • Frenzy now drains at half speed during Killer Instinct
  • Vaulting a pallet is now only available during Killer Instinct (you can still fast vault windows whenever).
  • Legion now moves at 5.6 M/S during Frenzy (140% up from 132%)
  • Killer instinct allows the Legion to cancel Frenzy with 33% less fatigue time (2 seconds instead of 3). This only triggers if Frenzy is canceled manually and not if you hit a survivor with Deep Wounds or let the timer run out.
  • Mending now has Skill Checks but takes 5 seconds less by default (10 down from 15)
  • Legion can now preform break actions at 150% during Frenzy
  • Killer Instinct's tracking is now aura and thus is hidden by lockers, generators and distortion.
  • Exposed or Injured survivors start with half the charges when put into Deep wounds from frenzy (30 charges instead of 60 normally) this does not stack.

Post edited by NullSp3c on


  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685

    Did you really read it all in 4 minutes?

    The idea is that the Skill Cap is Ginormus to both sides.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    For the record in a chase it resolves like having the pre-nerf cooldown addons base kit once you are in Killer Instinct.

    2 seconds is enough for the Survivor to get an 8 meter head start which can then be covered in 20 seconds. That time is lowered by lunge range, bloodlust, the fact that he doesn't go to a dead stop on stun ect. But while assuming that none of those factors apply it's 20 seconds.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    Thank you for reposting this <3

    I never wanted my original post to be closed

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    @LCGaster the the entire change is specifically tailored to solve his problems:

    Specifically lacking counter play and lacking kill power.

    Besides those 2 what problems are you referring to? Or are you contesting that this solves those 2 problems? In which case please elaborate.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685
    edited July 2019


    No problem, I was really disappointed when it said it was closed, that was why I reposted it.

    I just don't agree with the mend timer that is 60 seconds, it is too big imo. The balanced value should be determined by only playing because on paper it seems good but in gameplay you'll see that it is too long.

    Either way the post was too old so there are more people now concerned about legion and maybe they will help bringing him back to his fun state.

    Imo there should be no cooldown add-ons or Frank's Mixtape with these changes.They would be too strong and hard to balance. Completely reworked would be the right way.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685
    edited July 2019

    @Nobu I have seen you in a lot of Legion's discussions and I see that you are passionate too for this killer and I want to hear your opinion about these guys' idea.

    Post edited by NullSp3c on
  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    It's 60 charges not 60 seconds.

    The exact amount of time is variable. It's between 60 seconds and 20 seconds depending on distance.

    I'm fine with addon reworks. Franks actually could effect the minimum charge drain.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685

    Sorry, you actually said it well and I ended by mixing them up nevermind.

  • AStupidMonkeyyAStupidMonkeyy Member Posts: 718

    @NullSp3c Of course I read it. It sucks. Why would I want a slower mend time? Just make it 20 seconds and make it so they can't do interactions except windows and pallets. Increase the vault speed for both to what it use to be. Make a self stun only take half the power away and make it only 3 seconds. Now Legion has legit stall, he isn't slow as [BAD WORD] and can get a down without having to wait ages to do anything. What you propose is a lot of tedious [BAD WORD] that doesn't actually do much but seems to add nerfs.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    Literally no one likes taking the time to mend. So the less time we make them spend mending while making sure it still works as an ability the better.

    This has an even shorter self stun and doesn't take away any of his power just to stop using it.

    The nerfs are all countered by important buffs that would otherwise make him OP on their own.

  • ReikoMoriReikoMori Member Posts: 1,308

    I remember this from when it was posted. Some of it okay, but for my preferences I don't see it being what I want out of Legion. I think pre patch Legion is the right way to go in general, but remove deep wounds from their kit entirely and transition to a stacking on hit effect. As a status its fine, but Deep Wounds being used for both BT and Legion effectively ruins the point of it as a killer based power. To a degree I feel the same with Killer Instinct. It was a much more consistent and reliable tracking tool till they nerfed Legion and then altered it again when giving it to Ghostface.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685

    The deep wounds effect on legion was made so that legion can't instadown someone by just hitting them once, then run at 5.28 movement speed and simply down them.

    I said in the start to remember that this is suppose to be applied if the rework is undone on par with the changes to deep wounds that changed with legion. Having that in mind, legion can see the mend bar and reduce it by attacks. This post makes so that you can't exploit the mend timer.

    Killer Instinc is the same, they should revert the change to how it was or to an aura effect like explained above and by being an aura, gives counterplay with perks and lockers.

    The power is still good at chases and even better at hitting multiple survivors, increasing his movement speed to maintain his theme of agile and quick.

    Is too strong to vault pallets when tunneling someone with the power, that is why you need to enter killer instinct to do so and that actually helps chaining hits.

    Also gives mending actual interactiveness.

  • OdimmOdimm Member Posts: 33

    While the changes are interesting, I too would like to see them fix some of the stuff first before a complete rework. I believe the speed needs to change (while keeping the duration) + the deep wounds timer needs to tick while someone is repairing, even in the terror radius. #fixlegion

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685
    edited July 2019

    In the start I said that these changes would only apply if legion was reverted to his old state and then start from there, which means they will maintain their high movement speed as before and, with the mentioned changes, they will double the duration (that was previously 6 seconds) when you put a survivor in deep wounds(doubles to 12) so it helps you chain your attacks so it is even bigger than now that is 10 seconds.

    And the new mechanic with the deep wounds is actually pretty good so the survivors always drop their mend timer and have to mend when away and no exploit is allowed.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685
    edited July 2019

    @NoMitherNo_Problem i saw your comment on a post about Legion and it seemed like you liked to calculate the distances and stuff. And having in mind that math is really important here, what do you think about this idea?

  • The_TrapperThe_Trapper Member Posts: 186

    For me, it feels like the problem with Legion is his ability, more specifically what it does upon hitting a survivor. I have always viewed it as a way to apply pressure to survivors by forcing them to mend, but it just seems like the time to mend without add-ons is too short to make it worth while.

    I like the idea, my only change would be to make the Legion do a short animation with the knife instead of roaring, perhaps throwing it up in the air and catching it with the blade facing downwards.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    I see no problem with a knife toss up. Might be harder to animate but whatever.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685

    Why not both? They both seem really cool together and the roaring makes sound so that the m/s buuf to the frenzy doesn't become uncounterable when the survivors are doing a gen and don't know where you are.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    @Nullsp3c it was actually designed as the otherway around.

    The roar is required on it's own merits to create juking potential for the Survivors thus causing mindgames and making the Legions downsides meaningful while the movement speed increase is counterbalancing the self stun for use in movement.

    Old Frenzy: 31.68m over 6 seconds.

    New Frenzy: 50m over 10 seconds.

    This frenzy: 33.6m over 6.75 seconds.

    The average movement speed is about 5 M/S even though it's technically faster.

    That being said if you actually do hit them then the refilled bar will give you the full effective 5.6 M/S with 67.2m over 12 seconds.

    In any case just understand that with 5.28 you would only close the gap by 4.68 meters, so I increased the speed a bit so it's a relatively reasonable 6.6 meters which is pretty close to what it was before (7.68 meters) or 19.2 meters after you hit someone which is good to deal with Survivors that scatter and means that anyone you can see with Killer Instinct (remember 24 meter TR) can usually be reached even if they are running.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    Just some more math regarding stuff:

    Vaulting a window will drain the durration by 0.9 seconds (6*0.15) and also takes 0.9 seconds to do which means each vault reduces the total travel distance by 10 meters.

    This means there is a maximum of 4 vaults per frenzy and gives vaulting a meaningful cost without it technically slowing you down.

    Breaking a pallet in frenzy is 50% faster than normal but that's again 1.8 seconds of drain, the difference being that unlike with window vaulting (or pallet vaulting with KI) you actually do directly slowdown.

    Specifically the survivor will travel 7.2 Meters in that time. If you activate your power first (and thus have the 0.75 stun) it's 10.2 meters which is actually still less than breaking the pallet normally would be.

    Vaulting during Killer Instinct is instead a 0.9 total drain since the drain is cut in half. This makes it identical to pre-patch legion, but is balanced by the fact that you can't take advantage of this in order to tunnel someone since you need to have already hit someone without deep wounds in order to get the reduced drain.

  • miaasmamiaasma Member Posts: 911

    i stopped reading when i saw the "looks up at the sky and roars" suggestion because i could not stop laughing

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685

    These are the motives that made me choose this, of all ideas, the better one BY FAR.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685

    Yeah, it was funny when i first read it too, but believe me, continue reading and tell me if there is counterplay or not. I saw you commenting a lot on other legion posts and you said that there was no counterplay when a legion tunnels you, which i partially agree.

    Off topic* i think you were in the last Noob3 video.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    When I said that the Legion can totally maintain his old identity while having counterplay this is what specific changes I think would be needed to accomplish that goal.

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 3,298

    I like this change, this brings back the OG Legion but acknowledges their problems. Legion can't moonwalk and force them to bleedout because it's based on Distance, Legion needs to let them go for it to bleed out faster and then catching up gives them time Mend but also lets you get in closer.

    Taking away the 100% cooldown for missed attacks was an interesting choice, if you miss you still get a penalty but it's not as bad as it could be and promotes players to actually TRY to hit them.

    Giving Legion a roar animation to start the Feral Frenzy is a fantastic choice aesthetically and mechanically. I never understood why it was called Feral Frenzy but this makes it look like an actual rage run stabbing frantically and it gives the Survivor time to start running. Turning Killer Instinct to Auras gives Survivors a chance to hide in lockers when they see someone has DW or perhaps use the Gen tactic and just hide behind a Gen like everyone does with BBQ.

    The most important part about this rework is changing their speed to 5.6 up from 5.4 I think. That's what really makes this work in my opinion, OG Legion was slow and they NEEDED their power to down people, they designed to spam attack people with FF because they were slow and that was the problem. But if Legion is a normal speed Killer they can CHOOSE to let them bleed out or to chase them and down them with M1 which could be faster, it allows the player to choose how to play and it also gives the Survivors a chance to react to how the Killer is chasing them.

    THIS is the Legion we need, this Legion is the one I fell in love with, the adrenaline fueled psycho stabbers chasing people and screaming all the time. This is the change we need.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 5,364

    Also the M1 not draining thing that no one noticed because there is literally no reason why it should be there in the first place.

    It doesn't interact with the rest of his mechanics or his chase mechanics so I can't even bring it up with the counterplay thing because it adds literally nothing to the game which is just so stupid. And thus removing it doesn't effect the game either except in that it makes slug builds not as [BAD WORD].

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 685
    edited July 2019

    Yeah, unlike some Legion players/mains (even tho they are a minority) i wanted to have the old legion theme back, spamming the hit button and reducing the mend bar with high ms like in a real frenzy. BUT has counterplay,

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