My suggestion is what you're thinking. In a way, that is the whole point of my suggestion. Nerf the killer's pre vault just a little bit but bring the old speed back and remove the miss penalty. You're absolutely reading my mind.
what i meant by that statement was that there shouldn't be a killer with uncounterable game mechanics - that was what pre-rework legion was
is that what it needed to be in concept? of course not, but it was how it functioned. the people denying this either never played against it or were so enamoured by it that they don't want to accept it
You are absolutely right, there shouldn't be a killer with uncountarable game mechanics. Oh wait, Nurse is still in the game... and don't start with jukes as counterplay to her, 5-blink mommy will get your best parts regardless.
On a serious note, I don't want this to become a Nurse rant but the argument of "counterplay" is silly imho since it obviously doesn't apply to all Killers in the devs eyes.
I think a big problem is that people want to keep Legion's 115% speed, while also keeping his old FF speed. At least from reading this, is what it sounds like. The devs have said that they can't do that because he would basically be able to move across something like half of a big map in one FF, and if they get a hit, then it refreshes. If you want to move fast while in FF, you have to give up your current 115% speed. Legion is faster overall, he just doesn't move much faster while in FF. Missed attacks ending FF is good counterplay, whether you like it or not. The real thing that needs to be looked at is the addons. As for vault speed, as they said, it feels slow because of the animation. They were talking about speeding up the animation to make it feel better.
People claim Legion is slower but let's look at the facts:
Before: 4.4 MS(or 4.2, not sure if he was 105% or 110%, but I think 110%) + 5.28 MS during FF + 6 seconds of FF.
Now: 4.6 MS + 5.0 MS during FF + 10 seconds of FF.
Let's compare 20 seconds of movement:
Before: 93.28 MS(if it was 110%, if it was 105% it would be 90.48)
After: 96 MS
Now 10 seconds:
Before: 49.28 MS
After: 50 MS
Believe it or not, Legion is actually faster post-rework.
I have always assume, that it depends on the undone changes, how much of the few advantages the current Legion has, got also undone.
If they just undone something small, like the vault speed, or the tr radius, the new default Legion speed could stay imo.
On the other hand, would they undone the frenzy mechanic, or/and the deep wounds mechanic, it would of course necessary, to reduce the default speed of the Legion again.
And sorry missed attacks are unfun. That is, what it is. It also doesn't fit with the archtype of a fast moving and stabbing killer, if we take movies with those killers in mind.
Killers of this archtype have usually 3 rules:
Rule number 1: They are fast (ok that one is obviously).
Rule number 2: They attack fast, sometimes including missing hits, but that just underscores their wild nature and the wild nature of their attacks.
Rule number 3: They don't have a long attack duration. That is their drawback. They attacking fast, but their attacks ending also fast. They are the rogues of the killer universe, if we like to say so.
I have also play the Legion on this way, pre patch. And that was also a reason why I had play without addons, so that the feeling of a short but powerful attack was even stronger.
Well that and I have dislike the op addons -_-.
It is actually.pretty good for someone to put this into perspective. It is not that Legion needs a rework, but some of his values and add-ons need to be changed for him to be fun to play as. He has far too many drawbacks for using his power as it is right now as well.
“The devs have said that they can't do that because he would basically be able to move across something like half of a big map in one FF, and if they get a hit, then it refreshes. If you want to move fast while in FF, you have to give up your current 115% speed.”
Old FF=5.28 m/s
New FF=5 m/s
Giving him back his old speed will increase the amount of distance covered in one Frenzy from 50 meters to 52.8 meters. The devs clearly did not know what they were talking about when they gave us the reasons for those changes.
And for the record, the reason they made Legion a 115 Killer is because with his new Frenzy, he would be a 110 M1 Killer. No other reason.
”As for vault speed, as they said, it feels slow because of the animation. They were talking about speeding up the animation to make it feel better.”
No, it feels slow because it is slow. Myers can vault faster than Legion can jump over pallets, and with Bamboozle, he can vault faster than Legion can jump over windows.
“People claim Legion is slower but let's look at the facts:”
Yes, let’s look at the facts:
New Frenzy: 50 meters in 10 seconds
Fatigue duration: 4 seconds
Fatigue movement speed: 3.7 meters per second.
Distance covered in fatigue: 14.8 meters
Total Frenzy distance including fatigue: 64.8 meters in 14 seconds
Old Frenzy: 31.68 meters in 6 seconds
Fatigue duration: 3 seconds
Distance covered in fatigue: 11.1 meters
Total Frenzy distance including fatigue: 42.78 meters in 9 seconds
Difference between old and new Frenzy distances covered: 22.02 meters
22.02/4.4 (Old Legion’s base speed): 5.0045
In conclusion: Old Legion could use up his Frenzy and walk the distance covered by new Legion’s Frenzy, and would take less than 5 milliseconds to cover the same distance through walking normally.
Such an increase in speed.
That’s not the end of it, though.
New Frenzy+fatigue: 64.8 meters in 14 seconds
Walking at 115 speed for 14 seconds: 64.4 meters
Difference between distances: 0.4 meters
In exchange for losing your entire power for 20 seconds, and going into an obnoxious fatigue, you can cover 40 more centimeters than you would have through just walking.
Old Frenzy+fatigue: 42.78 meters in 9 seconds
Walking at 110 speed for 9 seconds: 39.6
Difference between distances: 3.18 meters
But just to be fair, let’s make old Legion 115.
Old Frenzy+fatigue: 42.78 meters in 9 seconds.
Walking at 115 speed for 9 seconds: 41.4 meters
Difference between distances: 1.38 meters
No matter what way you look at it, the old Feral Frenzy beats out old Frenzy in the category of “being faster than walking” in all ways. In other words, Feral Frenzy became even LESS useful for mobility than it was before, because it is much easier now to go that distance and speed by just walking normally and not using up your power. Not only was the overall mobility nerfed, but the cost for using your Frenzy is now much more severe, having to wait 20 seconds to use it again, versus old Frenzy’s cost of having to wait 2.5 seconds to use it again and 15 seconds to use it fully charged.
You’re missing the point.
Those numbers don’t matter because FF isn’t meant to be also used as a traversal tool. It’s simply meant to be fast enough to ensure Legion can inflict DW on as many in range survivors as possible, which it still is sufficiently fast enough.
I see your point but you are also missing his point: the survivors can loop you the entire duration of FF since you are basically a 115% killer whose vaulting speed is bad and can't catch them whether they use windows or pallets. You can only guarantee hitting the survivor(s) if they are close and in the open. Otherwise, you might as well just walk towards them. As I said, some numbers on him and add-ons need to be tweaked. No need for a full rework.
FF movement speed: 5 m/s
Survivor running speed: 4 m/s
5-4=Frenzy moves 1 meter per second faster than a running Survivor
FF duration: 10 seconds
In other words: In order to deny Legion a chain hit while in Frenzy, all a Survivor has to do is be more than 10 meters away from the Legion when they start running away.
10 meters. A distance a Survivor can run in 2.5 seconds.
No Exhaustion Perks. No loops that do, in fact, work against Legion because of his slow pallet vault. No sitting at a pallet to stun Legion. No jumping into a locker as he lunges to make him miss. None of that. No skill put into counterplay. This is literally just running in a straight line.
It’s not sufficiently fast enough.
Well, that is not fast enough. It can't be used as a traversal tool because walking with 115% is just better and it also has a 20 sec cooldown along with a 4 sec fatigue.
Just popping in to say a few things:
1) Nu-Legion is more of a snooze city than any other killer in the game. Their Frenzy is terribly boring to the point where I'd rather actively avoid using my power. The speed boost is not worth the 4 second stun if you use it as a mobility tool, and in practice versus Survivors, it's still pretty garbage if they're not effectively 2 inches apart.
2) The above could be fixed if they made Legion speedy again. They removed all of the lethality from their power, there's no reason they should be forced to give Clown a piggyback ride every time they want to Frenzy vault, and the Frenzy movement speed could very much do with a healthy buff. I wouldn't mind them getting the Freddy treatment of a 24 meter TR to help their hit and run strats either.
3) Don't put it past the Devs to rework someone you think is fine. I enjoy playing current Freddy, but the community as a whole wanted him reworked. The way things are going, I'm pretty sure current Legion's ideas will be gone within the next couple of years.
Man, would you look at all this counter play
And this is what i get with Hag after i barely get 2 kills and 32K bloodpoints. Against an SWF.
That's a misinterpretation of data. He can travel a further distance overall in FF now, but a much slower rate. You can't stack the base movement speed with the FF speed when doing your calculation as you're going to skew your math everytime.
I'm perfectly fine with shifting back to 110% base if that means I can move and vault faster in FF. I have always felt that the 115% movement speed change was just because they knew they were about to essentially destroy Legion's mobility and didn't want it to seem as if all the things they did were that bad.
They could have easily just made it so while in FF players couldn't Lunge which would have instantly solved the hyper speed exploit from repeated missed lunges. Exploit gone and you don't have to take away FF's movement speed. You already added in missed hits cancelling the FF so they added two fixes for one problem and then still said, "Let's lower the speed significantly and slow the vaults by 25%.". If they felt the survivors needed a bit more space on the vault they could have lowered the speed by a mere 10 to 15% and achieved the same outcome and if Legion players wanted the older speed back they'd have to run bamboozle at tier 3.
They said they would be speeding up animations on vaults to make it feel better, but they haven't and with such a huge decrease in vault speed better timed animations won't actually feel any better they will just look better so it does look as if Legion is doing a slow motion action pose when vaulting.
Power wise, legion is in the worst state he's ever been and probably will remain in that state because if BHVR ever annouces or decides that they will be revisiting him the survivors will complain again because they couldn't loop him like any other M1 killer, which was his strongest attribute as a killer but now he's just so awful there's no reason to play him over Wraith.
i totally agree, nurse shouldn't be in the game in her current incarnation. same with spirit
only difference is you have to at least kind of know how to play nurse to render her uncounterable. legion was uncounterable by design
Could you lay out the math for that, making sure to include the fatigue.
Pre patch legion was 4.4 M/S and has 3 seconds of fatigue (which is 3.7 M/S)
New legion is 4 seconds of fatigue still 3.7 M/S
Fatique is not even nearly 3.7 m/s, fatique speed is around 50% of base speed, 2.3 m/s, maybe 2.5 m/s.
If fatique speed was 3.7 m/s, survivor can make only 1.2 meters distance which would be covered by immediate lunge with M1 out of fatique. Show me vid where you can lunge survivor out of fatique.
Survivors can make gap during fatique around 6-7 meters, which make difference in speeds at least 1.5 m/s
Legion is fine. I have no problem playing as him or against him. I know legion gets alot of hate but legion is one of my favorite killers along side spirit and the doc.
Those who dont like him either dont understand how to use him or played against to many toxic legion players. Don't blindly follow others use your own mind.
@frozenscum I got that number from @No_Mither_No_Problem. So ask him because I wouldn't have anything for that.
While I agree that current Legion is not in need of a major rework and that they're way healthier for the game now, it does not mean that they do not need changes to make them more fun and exciting to play as. The biggest issues that I see people complain about are the following 3 points ;
Now obviously considering how Feral Frenzy works and the intention of deep wounds, there is no easy way to make it lethal while also keeping it fair. Luckily for us however, the devs made major changes to the old Legion which brings us to where we are now - a version of the Legion that functions as intended and can now be given suggestions on how to improve their various utilities therefor it's easier for us to look for ways to give Legion more tools and improve on their current strengths which is to chain hits on multiple survivors while also removing a handful of unnecessary penalties (mostly just the slower vaulting & losing charge on your power for performing a basic M1 attack).
With that being said, I want to address the two points that can actually be solved (and how) and make Legion fun for the people who are now complaining that they do not do their job well enough ;
1 : The Legion is meant to use their increased mobility, tracking and decreased successful attack cooldown as a way to find and injure as many survivors as they possible can. The problem with this is that in their current state they are not capable of chaining hits on any survivor further than 10 meters if they happen to be running away from you and also happens to not have an exhaustion perk and the math for this is pretty simple as with 5ms in Feral Frenzy you only cover 50 meters while a survivor runs at 4ms which means they travel 40 meters in that time.
This problem however can be solved with two changes, one of which is to improve the vault speeds while the other is to give legion a scaling sense of reward by providing a stackable speed bonus to their Feral Frenzy each time they successfully chain an attack which would cap at 4 stacks and be reset whenever the power is ended. This is actually something I suggested and a number that immediately comes to mind is to make this bonus worth +8.75% or 0.35 ms effectively allowing them to go as fast as 160% or 6.4 ms as a way to reward them for playing correctly and give them the presence they need in the game to be effective especially when it comes to actually gaining anything at all from your stall (deep wounds). This would mean that they can catch a survivor running away from within 24 meters which is a drastic improvement from only being able to catch survivors from 10 meters away but only if they earned it.
2 : The Legion is hit with a fat 4 second fatigue every single time they use their power which makes using their power a less attractive option later on in the match where every second matters especially in the mid to late game. More times than not, I see more people actually wanting to spend a reduced amount of time in the fatigue rather than even thinking about bringing back the old Legion (which would be horrendous).
One example of how you could do this is to rebalance the fatigue time is to decrease the fatigue movement speed and fatigue time so that it's 3 seconds of 2.3 ms instead of 4 seconds of being fatigued at 2.7 ms. This change would actually make the distance survivors gain to be nearly the same while providing Legion with a basic QoL change.
Current fatigue : Survivors gain 5.2 meters with an 8.66 second catch up time.
Proposed fatigue : Survivors gain 5.1 meters with an 8.5 second catch up time.
As you can see from what I've gone over so far, current Legion is pretty lackluster and can be vastly improved with some changes aimed towards improving the intended function of the power.
This is actually incorrect because it doesn't account for the fatigue. Legion can be given improvements without being a 110% killer and here is why ;
For the sake of simplicity I will provide you the distance Legion gains in 14 seconds with and without using their power and provide you with an average speed.
Without power : 4.6 x 14 = 64.4 meters gained.
With power : 5 x 10 + 2.7 x 4 = 60.8 meters gained.
What this means is that you actually lose 3.6 meters by using your power by taking the fatigue into account. Saying that Legion should be 110% just so they can be faster in the frenzy is just like saying Wraith should be 110% because they move faster while cloaked which also happens to be faster by 1% at a base and also happens to have addons that increase that stat.
I know that other people are saying that Legion's fatigue is 3.7 ms but your post was the quickest for me to find. Legion actually moves at 2.7 ms during their fatigue or otherwise 67.5%
Since I can't write your name out, actually ALL survivors have to be further than 10 meters from each other, and they also have to be running in the correct direction AWAY from Legion. If Legion hits one, his power refreshes.
As for the other information, you're right, I forgot fatigue. There is no information for how slow you move during fatigue however, but considering the duration is only one second longer, and it doesn't say in the patch notes that he got slower during his fatigue, I would assume he's only missing out on one extra second, but again, using my 10 and 20 second movement, old Legion would go in frenzy one time in 10 seconds, so he might be slightly faster due to having one second of non-fatigue, but old legion in 20 seconds would go in fatigue 3 times while new legion would go in fatigue 2, giving him an extra second of non fatigue. To be fair this is ignoring cooldowns, and the recharge time was increased by 5 seconds, but this was just to explain that they are faster now than they were the longer you are moving. In short bursts, old Legion was faster, sure. The more you move though, the greater the difference it becomes because the gap between movement was closed, and FF lasts longer. Also old FF was 6 seconds, so new FF lasting longer makes up for 3 of those seconds.
To ReikoMori: I can't ignore a major part of his changes just for the sake of proving someone right that he's slower, when he isn't. Those changes together prove he isn't. The thing people are seeing is that because he has a higher base movement speed, and a lower FF movement speed, he doesn't FEEL faster. That can be a valid concern, because there is a gap that has been closed by giving him a faster movement speed and a lower FF speed, now they feel similar in speed. The only way to fix this would be to change his speed values when in FF and when out of FF to be further apart(Or they could nerf base speed and increase length of FF, say 4.4 ms base with 14 second FF would be quite similar to the current speed in 20 seconds, slightly more, but not enough to be too good). But I bet no one would have noticed this feeling of being "so slow" if they only nerfed his speed to 5.0 in FF because the difference would still be big enough to feel.
Darn man stop with the feels its all about hit or not and it is not when the survivors choose so
@miaasma I wish the down vote was still a thing. It's already been said that we don't want cheesy Legion back. We don't want old deep wounds back. If anything, remove deep wound completely and give legion something else. It was a terrible power before nerfs and even worse after. Legion does not feel good to play and should be fixed.
What we are trying to say is that we want Legion to be fun to play as. There have been plenty of suggestions that you have not read. If you had read them you would not have replied as you have in this post. Even going as far as calling people losers who try using Frank's and stab wound study.
In other words, NOBODY wants cheesy, exploiting Legion back and we all agree he was bad for the game.
Edit: I don't like using words such as everyone or nobody. If there are people who want pre patch Legion in its entirety then they are the minority.
Regardless to how well you do with them, who here actually enjoys playing Legion as they are now? Are they fun? Does the 4 second stun seem fair for what their power does? Giving survivors the borrowed time effect... Who thought this power was a good idea? It's horrendous.
I have seen two Legions this past month. At most, only 10 since after the rework cooled down.
That is even more worse as I could imagine. I would like to see Behavior's data, on how many people have stop playing the Legion, since the patch.
Also the data of buyers of the dlc and if they play the killer longer as a few days could be interesting.
why do you want the downvote option back if you're essentially agreeing with me? based on this thread alone there are people who want pre-patch legion back in its entirety because they felt uncounterable gameplay was fine as long as it was fun for them. i totally agree that legion should be tweaked and improved (and i'm sure they will be) so as to make their gameplay more fluid and enjoyable, and have said so multiple times. my objection posts have been solely directed towards people insisting that pre-patch legion had counterplay and was fine for the game, so i'm not sure where the issue is
You're objectively wrong. But OK. That said, I don't think they need a rework - just some minor buffing and add-on changes.
Legion sucks, deep wound is a joke, feral frenzy is fine.
DC'ing on purpose is never "reasonable", that's just something salty survivors would say when they refuse to admit they just suck.
That's like killers saying "Yeah, it's reasonable to DC against gen rushing.
Nobody is asking for him to to become the new 1# killer, we're just asking for him to be viable at red ranks. Relax.