So, its okay if survivors force the killer into a playstyle (looping), but when the killer does it, its suddenly not so okay anymore? Did I get that right?
Just because Freddy got a rework doesn’t mean every killer in the game needs a rework, stop with this nonsense plz.
Stealth vs looping. Which is more enjoyable for survivors? Which is more enjoyable for killers? Ultimately, that is what this discussion is about.
Stealth is a playstyle but can also be a great counter to a lot of different killers that aren't Nurse. Barring some exception such as bear traps which would also require weariness. If they can't find you they can't hit you.
Personally, I enjoy playing stealthy as a survivor and it does take skill but I'd argue that looping does too. Stealth involves more than just hiding behind a rock. If you've been working on a gen the killer will most likely look around the area a bit. Killers will attempt to anticipate where the survivor is hiding or if they already ran off. Survivors can base this choice from how the killer has been playing so far or whatever the survivor is comfortable/confident in doing. Should I run, urban evade, or walk away? What would be the best route to avoid line of site? If I'm going to stay in the area where do I go that can block line of sight? Then watching how the killer reacts to a progressed gen and continuing to avoid line of site as the killer looks around.
What perks could this killer be using that could track me and what do I have at my disposal to lessen or prevent from being tracked? BBQ&C, hide behind gen in relation to where other survivor is being hooked, hide in locker, fake direction or stand still for 5 seconds after the hook then move out of area. Thrilling tremors, once confirmed killer has it, stop working on gen so it becomes blocked and doesn't stick out to the killer. Nurses calling, don't heal in terror radius. If small terror radius then try to spot the killer then head in opposite direction to heal. Etc... I don't want to go through all of them.
Not sure if it counts as a double post but I wanted to break it apart to avoid too large a wall of text.
As for equipping certain perks to counter a killer. It's a choice the individual makes unbeknownst to the killer. Killers can see items but not perks, while, the survivor does not know what the next killer is so can't prepare accordingly. What perks or even what survivor you choose (example: females are generally more low profile) answers the question of what you have at your disposal to lessen or prevent being tracked. Iron will, urban evasion, self-care (healing stops grunts of pain), distortion, breakdown, spine chill (my absolute favorite), etc...
My point being is that stealth is a viable option in a great deal of situations and does require skill. If in a situation where stealth is not immediately beneficial then adapt. Attempt to break line of site during chase and lose the killer (is very much so possible). If you get found again then attempt to lose killer again or loop. Adapt to the killer.
In regard to being adaptive, or reactive, survivors can be reactive as well but it depends on you to make that choice and equip yourself accordingly. Perks like bond, spine chill, lithe, balanced landing, decisive strike, empathy, alert, and so on, can help in adapting to different situations. It might seem as if the stealth approach didn't matter but what is important to keep in mind is that the killers time has already been wasted before you've even attempted looping.
You know,i have to respectfully disagree with the OP here. Nurse can be avoided, in fact i have more success avoiding nurse than I do most killers unless she is UBER GOD NURSE TEIR!!.
Firstly, mastering nurse takes skill. You might think it's just point and click, but it isn't. Actual aim and mind games are involved, and even then it can all go wrong if you don't know what you're doing. If nurse is EZ street for you, then congratulations, but the vast majority of the playerbase agree, she takes skill to truly be good with, and those who master her should be allowed the privilege of trying a different play style.
Secondly, there ARE counters to the nurse. Just because YOU don't like stealth, doesn't mean it isn't a valuable and effective strategy against the nurse. P*ss all over it as you will, you don't get to invalidate it as a working tool against this killer, the same with mindgaming them, because as was already pointed out....she is LOCKED in the blink once she starts.
Not every killer has to be loopable...christ the nurse even announces when she's going to take a swing or blink at you, it is really not a sruggle to counter her if you are willing to accept that other playstyles exist. If you aren't willing...well thats your problem, not the nurse's.
If you think stealth is just crouching behind a rock, that explains why you think it's useless.
Guess what? Killers also do not want to feel helpless and that their skill and all the hours that they dedicted mean nothing; but that is the case for almost every killer except the Nurse, otherwise they are totally reliant on survivors making significant mistakes. We picked the role that above all else should not feel helpless, survivors picked a role where a certain degree of helplessness is necessary and should be expected based on the theme and the principle of an asymmetric multi-player.
In an asymmetric multi-player, the side which has the numbers advantage should not ever have the 1v1 advantage, or even be close to equal. Stealth should be a necessity in some cases, because having to face the killer 1v1 should default to the killer winning barring a huge disparity in the ability of the actual players.
Almost every killer except nurse pfff...
You probably meant that only nurse is viable amongst other killers addonless? You re wrong even then. Besides addons are meant to be played with so stop handicapping yourself and admit you re wrong
I have no idea what exactly you're replying to. What you're saying, what you mean, what your point is: that's all lost on me. You're not saying anything.
Find someone with standards as low as yours and talk about this with them, not me.
They need to. I will never play vs a nurse. It's an instant dodge as soon as I hear the scream. Even if I beat the nurse I can never have an enjoyable game. She's insanely unfun to play vs and she needs to be reworked or completely gutted. People saying base nurse is balanced are just dumb. In the DbD tournament they had a while back where no one could take perks or addons, Nurse won every single game and it wasn't even close. If you didn't have a nurse player on your team you didn't win. Base nurse is still incredibly overpowered vs base anything else. Sure, you might be able to win a game vs a base nurse. But it doesn't make it her balanced or fun to play against. It's an incredibly stupid design for a character and the fact she hasn't been reworked just proves how clueless the devs are in this game.
My point about skill being irrelevant is true. Because she has no counter play in a chase. Say "just stealth" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that she has no chase counter play. How can you not realize that every killer should have this? Literally just go watch the OhTofu video if you want to see my point.
The thing is, a survivor is being forced into a "hope the don't see me or I have no chance" style. At least looping has ######### counter play. A Nurse who knows what she is doing in a chase has none.
Sorry, crouching behind various items. My bad.
I mean, these forums are crawling with purely killer mains. Can't expect too much of them.
You may THINK the Devs might listen to this post, but nah mate.
If you support the standard that 'no possible play in this game should be without a viable counter-play', then you'll find much consensus on that.
You will however be inviting a discussion on what other features of the game that standard should apply to. Is it right that once a survivor starts looping, the only counter-play for non-Nurse killers involves banking on the survivor making a mistake?
What is the counter-play to Decisive Strike? Currently the only one is to wait for it to run out, meaning the killer is stalled whether they stand there watching or go do something else. That's not so much a counter-play as it is forcing a catch-22.
There are numerous other examples that can be brought up, but if the devs incorporated 'no plays unless there are counter-plays' into their balance principle; survivors would be the ones who come off worse for it.
If you cant find "almost every killer except nurse" in your own sentence yeah thats hard leave it
Dont say anything that may trigger them or you may get banned for month like me
"What is the counter play to Decisive Strike"
Two more reasons right there for why the devs must stop listening to survivors.
You realize not tunneling is a thing, right? Don't play like an ######### and you won't get punished.
i honestly wouldn't bother
i mean i could not 4k with nurse and it still wouldn't mean she's not op
don't feel like you are really worth talking to either though
Yeah! Just rework or gut a character people have put countless hours into mastering, who cares about them right? It’s all about ME surviving /s.
God forbid a high skill ceiling killer actually be strong.
This has been discussed before and survivors simply did not want to listen, as usual.
First let's deal with the main problem of design intent: the killer is robbed of both choice and a crucial mitigation against other options that survivors have or 2nd-chances, without which those 2nd-chances too are without a mitigation or counter-play. Even the robust case against hook-camping(which survivors don't make any more; they avoid pushing for higher standards across the board) accepted that killers had a valid reason to camp a hook after the generators were completed; there is no longer a cause to apply map-pressure that is worthwhile. DS by itself actually punishes the killer for NOT tunnelling or camping much earlier in the game, but waiting until the end when it's a no-brainer tactic, but combine with with any other 2nd-chance perk and it's game-breaking. The killer is not making a choice at all, but is being forced to lose one way or the other.
Killers could mitigate against this, by stacking up a build entirely for the end-game; but do survivors really want that to become the case when many of them already can't stand NOED?
Secondly is an issue that was raised not long after the DS change, which is that even if the killer doesn't tunnel, the survivor is 100% safe as long as a locker is close enough. They can stay go interfere with a chase already in progress and jump in a locker, so the killer goes to check it but has no choice in picking them up and getting struck.
It allows survivors to play like ######### just fine, but it's killer who is punished by default for not min-maxing, far from being an #########. This isn't a punishment by sound strategy either; it's imposed by design, whether the killer has done anything 'wrong' or not.
i didn't read that
don't tunnel off hook or slug the person you're tunneling for 60 seconds
if somebody runs at you or jumps into a locker shortly after being unhooked it's very obvious ds bait
ds is counterable very easily but i know it's easier to just blame survivors for everything and put in no personal effort towards anything
It's survivors that persistently lobby the devs for double-standards, not killers and not me.
survivors are all entitled babies and killers are honourable martyrs, we get it, you can stop typing it now
"Stop trying to kill people!"
I mean, I attack the person I've hooked less, given a choice, but that's directly working against my sacrifice BP. I'm aware that's putting myself at a disadvantage. "Tunnelling" is just a Killer not being nice 9/10, with only the remaining 10% being the overt spite of ignoring other players to eliminate one from the game.