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Question for those who think Spirit is OP/Unfun (not her addons)

What aspects of her do you think are OP/Unfun and what changes do you think would be needed to resolve the issues you have with her?

Or in other words what does a balanced Spirit look like in your opinion exactly?

I'm not here to argue if she is balanced or not, so please do not comment if you're going to say something like "omg she's fine just leave her" because that just misses the point. There are plenty of other threads for that.

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Comments

  • zaozaoxxzaozaoxx Member Posts: 194

    she is ok, just like Nurse, what destroy her is addons

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited July 2019

    I disagree with this because I think it would just open a new can of worms. Sometimes the fact that she has collision means she can't do certain things. Like I main Spirit and I can already imagine a world where she has no collision, so I just start running through survivors to get to the pallet first and then come at them from another direction. Or one where a survivor unhooks another and then has no way to protect that survivor other than trying to trick me into chasing them via scratch marks or something. Like not having collision isn't going to actually make it harder for her to find you believe it or not.

    Like yea, removing it would hurt her in these specific instances, but then it would also buff her in these other specific instances. I'd rather collision because then at least you can bait her to follow through say a pallet, then drop the pallet on her while she's phase walking. Since you're waiting for it and she has to react to it, chances are you will win the encounter and hit her with the pallet. But if I could just pass through you then I wouldn't get stuck near the pallet and therefore that tactic is lost.

    The trick to not getting found via collision is to 1) not be in the predictable path where she is most likely to be phase walking, and 2) to be moving in some capacity (walk/crouch) so that when you bump into each other you feel it. If you just stand still you'd have no idea that she actually bumped into you and therefore have nothing to react to.

    TLDR I don't think removing collision would have the result you would want as it just opens up a new set of tactics for Spirits.

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 3,162

    I think it's unfun that she moves at 110 instead of 115.

  • NiteN_⑨NiteN_⑨ Member Posts: 35

    Your first example can be prevented cause you can hear a phasing spirits footsteps if you listen closely allowing survivors to juke a spirit trying it and the other can be punished with DS something high rank survivors often use.

  • NiteN_⑨NiteN_⑨ Member Posts: 35

    The first example can be countered since you can hear a phasing spirits footsteps to tell were shes going and the second gets punished by DS a perk most high rank survivors run.

  • EninyaEninya Member Posts: 1,129

    My issue with this is that an audio cue for her phasing will never play regardless. You have to pray you can see grass moving.

  • prettyfprettyf Member Posts: 442

    this is true, but least spirit requires incourse and soundplay

    limitation of ability meter when its far from you

    but in close range it needs more reduction when canceled ability

    yea its 2rd best killer character in this game so its little op

    however spirit is never even close to nurse

    so i can accept opponent not picked nurse at least

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 3,162

    I want to argue, here, that nailing this with Spirit requires a developed skill -- that is, consistently and correctly intuiting survivor location from environmental cues -- and hence should be powerfully rewarded to a player who has put in the effort. Wraith can see survivors while cloaked, so it's not a fair comparison.

    Shouldn't killers with a higher learning curve (Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Huntress, maybe Hag) be harder to deal with in the hands of a player who has learned their really specific idiosyncrasies and can consistently execute?

    And, broadly speaking, the survivors as a group have the advantage, because the clock is always against the killer. So, shouldn't it be appropriate for killers to undoubtedly have the upper hand in individual chase scenarios? In other words, big picture favors survivors, but specific encounters favor killer.

    I suppose I am arguing this as my position because I sort of "softly" believe what I am describing to be an appropriate balance target. But I'm throwing it out there as an open question, because, I dunno, what does everyone think? Spirit certainly seems to be a fulcrum for this particular philosophical debate.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,779

    @LordGlint

    Am I able to make additional changes to the wraith in order to account for this?

    If so then I could probably make it work so yes.

    If not then it still depends on exactly what you mean. The wraith has an addon that makes the bell not ring but still requires a channel. I'm ok with this addon.

    Or it could just mean you can swing while invisible with no additional changes. Which I would not be ok with.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,779

    Just a reminder that the main point of this post is theory crafting solutions.

    So far I've just heard the collision thing, which is great but I'm sure people can come up with more idea's. Or does everyone think that would be sufficient?

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    1) If I phase walk through you and come from the pallet you are running to then you have nothing to use to avoid a hit because you're just out in the open. If there is collision I'm forced to either come from behind you (which you could still run to the pallet likely) or go around and cut you off which means if I guessed wrong I lost you.

    2) I slug you.

    My point with these examples was that either way the Spirit is not negatively affected.

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 2,854

    Prayer Beads change places with Mother Daughter Ring in terms of rarity or have their effect altered to play the phasing sound for all survivors whenever she phases, similar to Wraith's boneclapper.

    As a Spirit main, I strongly disagree with removing collision when phasing at this time. I say that because survivor audio levels are not remotely consistent from survivor to survivor and map to map. Everyone has tier 1 and 2 Iron Will on Mt Ormond. Jake sounds like he's underwater in corn fields. Bill echoes badly on Autohaven. I could go on. Collision is the final confirmation when the audio is uncertain, but audio uncertainty isn't always a player skill thing.

  • VassyleVassyle Member Posts: 48

    Very simple answer, run Spine Chill, is the most underrated perk in the game and also the best that could exist. Just watch some PainReliever videos and u will see how good it is, as it counters every stealth killer and helps u a lot in a chase when u get used to the perk

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 3,162

    I, like PainReliever, also refuse to play survivor without Bond and Spine Chill. Bond is the best survivor perk in the game, full stop. And Spine Chill is to survivor as Whispers is to killer -- that is, once you learn to read it and really understand the powerful radar that it gives you, you'll feel crippled without it.

    And yeah, it really helps vs. Spirit mindgames -- husks don't register as being the killer, so you'll know if she's trying to trick you.

  • vampire_toothyvampire_toothy Member Posts: 381
    edited July 2019

    Personally I find Spirit to be one of my favorite killers to go against as I love the challenge she provides and I like the fact that it challenges how I would normally play - however, I also do understand that I have an unpopular opinion when it comes to that and that most people do not enjoy playing against her because it feels like a guessing game to them.


    With that being said, I find it very interesting that people are proposing to remove her collision while phasing when in reality it would only harm new spirits, buff experienced ones and do absolutely nothing to address the problem most players have with her.

    To go into more detail, removing collision does not fix the bad feeling players get when a Spirit stands still and then hits them. Going further with this point, experienced players would gain the ability to do the following ;

    • Cut through players to reach a pallet sooner, causing more unfair cases that would only build up more frustrations.
    • Eliminates the point of bodyblocking because now you can't bodyblock for someone you've unhooked which would in return guarantee that person goes down which would promote tunneling.
    • Cut through players to reach a window and then unvanish to bodyblock it, guaranteeing the survivor has absolutely no options where they previously could've used a window to cut time away from her power duration.

    Essentially, this would be a buff to good spirit players and would only harm new ones who might get mixed up which would still be relying on the Spirit making a mistake.


    Rather than remove collision, I believe there is a better solution. Below I will include a nerf to the power and an overhaul to the passive phasing to make up for it with the goal of encouraging more interactive gameplay for more users ;

    • When you fully charge Yamaoka's Haunting, you play a sound at the start and end of your phase which gives players a clear indication that they are now being mindgamed.

    Now obviously that's a pretty considerable hit to Spirit, so how do we make up for that? Overhauling her passive phasing, and here is how this would be accomplished ;

    • Passive phasing can occur anytime you have at least 25% of your power gauge rather than randomly.
    • Activating it is simple, you press control and gives the power icon a white tint to indicate it's in use and then return back to normal when it ends which can also be paired with sounds only the killer can hear. The duration should be something at or between 0.4 and 0.75 seconds long and take out 25% of your power charge.
    • To prevent spamming it, passive phasing could be given a brief 2-3 second cooldown between multiple uses.
    • Her two passive phasing addons "Juniper Bonsai" & "Dried Cherry Blossom" can be changed to either continue to increase the duration of the passive phase, or have it take less of your charge (so 20% or 15% instead of 25%, just as an example).

    Now, I don't believe the suggestion I will provide here is perfect by any means, but I believe it would solve the problem people are actually having with Spirit while still keeping the parts of her power that is super fun to use and provide more utility out of passive phasing.

  • noneofyourbusinessnoneofyourbusiness Member Posts: 532

    I have best solution: git gud or play something else, this is only what you need to know, only that and everything

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,779

    @LordGlint alright then. How would you go about fixing those problems if you were given the chance to?

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,350

    @NuclearBurrito Probably not the answer you wanna hear, but maybe give it the Freddy treatment and rework it from the ground up. I could pitch some idea if you want, but they wouldnt be anything like spirit's current ability.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,779

    @LordGlint go for it.

    I wouldn't specifically request that people hate on my favorite Killer if I wasn't prepared to hear things I disagree with.

  • StarMoralStarMoral Member Posts: 819

    Well, if she's not wearing prayer beads, listen for the phasing hum.

    If you suspect she's phasing, try not to make loud noises or leave scratch marks.

    Although, if your with a group of people and the Spirit is phasing, make as many scratch marks as possible, intertwined with your teammates. It should confuse the Spirit tremendously.

    Other than that, she's a 110% Killer with a breathing sequence that's loud as fudge.

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,350
    edited July 2019

    @NuclearBurrito What if Spirit could project out a copy of herself with limited steering to strike at a target. Think of it like if instead of a hatchet, if huntress throw a HillBilly instead. After the strike, your camera would then return to the original origin point (the husk). We could make use of her screams as a sort of battle cry, similar to the sound effects huntress makes while priming a hatchet.

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 2,939

    Personally I would change two things:

    • a visual and/or audio cue when she uses her power. Standing still in front of a pallet is fun the first times, but it gets boring soon since there is no interaction and basically everything the survivor can do will lead to a hit.
    • remove collision when using Prayer Beads. Gen grabs with this addon are done mainly thanks to collision. If this allows to sick plays as @vampire_toothy said it might be worth to make the addon UR
  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 3,162

    I think full-on reworks are a bad, baaaaaaaaaaad idea for this game, given how much players are asked to invest in a single character.

    I've already lost Freddy. If they were to make a habit of this, and I felt like I constantly had to fear them hitting the reset button on a character I've spent millions and millions of BP on, I would just stop playing the killer role altogether.

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