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TydeTyme's exhaustion video

OK, let me start by saying

  1. I like TydeTyme and agree on a majority of things with him
  2. I am a killer main

So with this in mind let me say that I disagree with his thoughts on the exhaustion nerf.

For those who may be unfamiliar with what I am talking about basically in Tyde's recent video he said that the OVERALL exhaustion nerf was a good thing and that sprint burst was not the only problem. If you want to hear what he had to say in full context then I of course urge you to go and watch his video.
Now I absolutely feel that SB needs a nerf, no questions asked, BUT I don't feel the way to do this is by nerfing ALL the exhaustion perks because ultimately it is counter productive. If all the exhaustion perks get nerfed equally, then doesn't that still make SB the best perk out of those to use? Now, Tyde's argument is that the other perks not only do what sprint burst does, but actually do more. Now this is true to an extent however there is a really big caveat to this: They are all situational.

Lithe: You must vault over something
Balanced Landing: You must fall from a height
Dead Hard: You must be injured
Sprint Burst: No stipulation, just don't be exhausted ( Just like the other perks )

Now with Sprint Burst, even if I know you have it, there is simply nothing I can do to counter it. Compare this to the others where I will always see when you are trying to activate it, whether it be because you are aiming to vault something, aiming to fall from something or if you used Dead hard earlier, I will then know to just wait till you use it and then hit you right after. I can then just plan ahead by going around the vault or the drop zone so that your perk has much less effect against me.

Now to just finalize this Tyde used the example of the Nurse being countered by Dead Hard, which is true absolutely, but now name me another killer that is hard countered by Dead Hard. The only reason it is a counter to Nurse is because of the nature of her playstyle, this does NOT make it a counter to ALL killers.

Tyde mentions other things in the video that I absolutely agree with such as generator time and the overall power of the killer, these all absolutely need to be fixed. But to the topic at hand I have to completely disagree with Tyde, I as a killer main have never thought " Damn Dead Hard is annoying as hell ", but I do feel that way about SB. SB needs to be nerfed, but for me ONLY sprint burst out of the exhaustion perks needs this. As I say, if ALL the perks are getting nerfed, then ultimately Sprint Burst will still be the best one to use out of them

I hope this didn't seem too rant-like for that is not my intenton, I simply don't agree that the way to nerf a perk is by nerfing it's ENTIRE category. It would be like nerfing Nurses calling just because people have a problem with BBQ, it would make no sense

Thanks for reading, and of course give your own opinion on the situation!

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Comments

  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @RemoveSWF said:
    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

    Bullshit.

    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.

    First of all, as I CLEARLY said I agree that the game is unbalanced and that killer should be buffed and survivors nerfed, so I politely ask that you don't come in shouting about these things.
    Second, I agree that crutch perks ( DS, SB, SC etc. ) should go, but I don't feel that Dead Hard, balanced and Lithe are crutch perks because of their caveats, they are not something that can be used at will, unlike SB.
    Finally, the fundamental problems of DBD do not lie in these 3 exhaustion perks, so these perks getting nerfed will change almost nothing for killers.

  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @ThePloopz said:
    The salt is going to be real in this thread

    Yup, I can tell

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    RemoveSWF said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen 

    *you're

    Good retort well done 
  • deadwolfwalkingdeadwolfwalking Member Posts: 624

    @RemoveSWF said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen 

    *you're

    *THEY'RE

    you're the killer. remember?

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864

    @Paddy4583 said:
    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

    Bullshit.

    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.

    Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 
    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 
  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.
    
    Bullshit.
    
    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.
    
    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.
    
    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.
    
    
    
    Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 
    

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 

    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have the add-ons

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864

    Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.

    SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.

    All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID

    I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.
  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @FrenziedRoach said:
    Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.

    SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.

    All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID

    See this is fine, a disagreement is much better to work with rather than an accusation, I personally feel SB is worse because for example if I am Leatherface and I catch someone off guard, I feel I deserve that chainsaw, however if they run SB they can actually get away and my discovery meant nothing. I find this problem is not part of Lithe for example where you have to actually do something to activate it.

  • FrenziedRoachFrenziedRoach Member Posts: 1,684

    @Paddy4583 said:
    FrenziedRoach said:
    I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.

    Killer's speed only comes into play when you are running in a straight line. It's less impactful on repeated corners due to their slightly larger collision capsule and the way first person navigates.

    A person like me who runs information gathering perks almost always knows where the killer is, and thus knows when to not leave scratch marks.

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.
    
    Bullshit.
    
    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.
    
    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.
    
    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.
    
    
    
    Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 
    

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 

    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.


  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    
    RemoveSWF said:
    

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.
    
    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.
    
    
    
    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
    

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 

    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.

    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864

    @Paddy4583 said:
    FrenziedRoach said:
    I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.

    Killer's speed only comes into play when you are running in a straight line. It's less impactful on repeated corners due to their slightly larger collision capsule and the way first person navigates.

    A person like me who runs information gathering perks almost always knows where the killer is, and thus knows when to not leave scratch marks.

    You’re original post was talking about during a chase! Not in general.
    of your being chased you leave a trail behind you and if your escape perks can only be used once as you stated, then I said I’d agree if the scratch marks were removed from the chase not in general.
  • EclipseDarkstarEclipseDarkstar Member Posts: 48

    Honestly the biggest problem with all of these perks (Minus Dead Hard, which I don't think needs a nerf, especially since it kinda already just got one) is that their existence makes problems that are already problems just that much worse. Namely, maps and pallet/window placement. Sprint Burst is crazy because pallets are too abundant, Lithe is crazy because window looping is pretty impossible to beat without Bamboozle if the survivor is smart, etc. So while I would agree that these perks are way too powerful, I don't think it's as much because of themselves, but rather the state of the rest of the game.

    Here's what I would rather they do. Just make a mechanic where you can only use it once per chase, but the exhaustion still recovers, maybe with a little leniency if the chase is broken since it's too easy to break a chase just by breaking line of sight (Part of why Bloodlust sucks, by the way, too many times I've followed the survivor perfectly and my Bloodlust just vanishes). Also fix the damn hitboxes so that when I hit someone who's sprinting, my weapon doesn't harmlessly glance them while I suffer a lengthy cooldown. Then perhaps remove about a quarter of the pallets on each map that isn't Lery's or Rotten Fields. Also double pallets are a complete no-no. That could be a good start to fixing the balance. Not perfect, but a start.

  • EclipseDarkstarEclipseDarkstar Member Posts: 48

    PS. Some really big problems with the current mechanics nobody seems to be addressing are how it affects two things; Killer addons that apply exhaustion, and Vigil. The former being too powerful, and the latter being completely nullified in effectiveness. Something needs to be changed about those if the current mechanics stick, because the only thing they won't nerf into the ground is Sprint Burst. Which was kinda the center of the rebalance anyway.

  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @EclipseDarkstar said:
    Honestly the biggest problem with all of these perks (Minus Dead Hard, which I don't think needs a nerf, especially since it kinda already just got one) is that their existence makes problems that are already problems just that much worse. Namely, maps and pallet/window placement. Sprint Burst is crazy because pallets are too abundant, Lithe is crazy because window looping is pretty impossible to beat without Bamboozle if the survivor is smart, etc. So while I would agree that these perks are way too powerful, I don't think it's as much because of themselves, but rather the state of the rest of the game.

    Here's what I would rather they do. Just make a mechanic where you can only use it once per chase, but the exhaustion still recovers, maybe with a little leniency if the chase is broken since it's too easy to break a chase just by breaking line of sight (Part of why Bloodlust sucks, by the way, too many times I've followed the survivor perfectly and my Bloodlust just vanishes). Also fix the damn hitboxes so that when I hit someone who's sprinting, my weapon doesn't harmlessly glance them while I suffer a lengthy cooldown. Then perhaps remove about a quarter of the pallets on each map that isn't Lery's or Rotten Fields. Also double pallets are a complete no-no. That could be a good start to fixing the balance. Not perfect, but a start.

    I completely agree, and with you mentioning it the biggest problem I have with the exhaustion nerf is actually Dead Hard. We can definitely have a discussion about where Balanced landing and Lithe are at, but Dead Hard is fine so this just unnecessarily hurts it

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    edited July 2018

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    
    RemoveSWF said:
    

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.
    
    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.
    
    
    
    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
    

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 

    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.

    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence

     Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition.
  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    
    IronWolf115 said:
    

    @Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.    Bullshit.    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.        Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 
    

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 
    
    
    
    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 
    

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.

    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence

     Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    edited July 2018

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    
    IronWolf115 said:
    

    @Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.    Bullshit.    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.        Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 
    

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 
    
    
    
    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 
    

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.

    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence

     Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

    I don’t need to you defined it yourself. You claim limited as a consequence and some of these are limited, you defined control as a consequence some of these can’t be controlled, you stated some were being nurfed and so are these, so by your own definition they aren’t crutches.

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.
  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    
    IronWolf115 said:
    

    @Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:    RemoveSWF said:
    

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.        Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
    

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position  A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.
    
    
    
    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence
    
    
    
     Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.
    

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

    I don’t need to you defined it yourself. You claim limited as a consequence and some of these are limited, you defined control as a consequence some of these can’t be controlled, you stated some were being nurfed and so are these, so by your own definition they aren’t crutches 

    I have argued that Lithe, Balanced landing and dead hard are limited yes, and I stand by this. The topic you and I are discussing though are crutches. Decisive strike is limited by nothing, thats why it is a get out of jail free card. Self care is limited by nothing, it is and infinite and constant way for you to heal yourself. And sprint Burst may have limitations on the exhaustion but there is no limitation to it's activation, you can dodge many attacks that should have killed you just by using sprint burst.

    Your argument is that BBQ as an example is a crutch perk. How so? It is an aura perk that enables you to act on the location of a survivor, but it does not just immediately down them for you, that is something you must do of your own volition.

    And if you mean that DS and Self care are getting nerfed then you are indeed correct, but the fact right now is

    1. When?
    2. Will the nerf be enough

    At this very moment DS and SC are the be all end all perks in the game, BBQ and Insta down attacks are not

  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?

  • IronWolf115IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @MegaWaffle said:

    @ThePloopz said:
    The salt is going to be real in this thread

    Its because people are sharing opinions, the one thing society can't stand.

    Thank you for some rational understanding

  • Paddy4583Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?

    And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.
    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir
    saying neither are crutches 
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