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What is going on with the Nurse



  • DrDeepwoundDrDeepwound Member Posts: 696
    edited July 2019

    You may want to read the disclaimer above those stats and the devs have posted on this board that they are not accurate. Innaccurate stats according to the devs after release ;)

    "These are very general statistics, so use caution before drawing any conclusions."

    PS: your stat pic shows 50% are solo, so whats left? 50% are SWF, so as I said, devs have shown stats that show 50-70% are SWF. Devs released stats before that, that showed 70% SWF,.... Far from your "not as common as you think" when at LEAST half your games are SWF.

    Post edited by DrDeepwound on
  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 614

    You realized you got trapped in a corner and no way to explain yourself out of it

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 2,230

    Care to elaborate which nerfs exactly?

    Care to elaborate how Ruin made a Killer's job easier over time if it's been the meta Perk for so long. Care to elaborate the same for BBQ, a Perk that by now has so many counters, most Killers only use it for the BP bonus anymore?

    Otherwise your post is not a defence of point #5, but rather full of empty claims.

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,398

    This is the worst argument I've seen so far/\ -------> prettymuch screw what happened to the character in the past and how the players reacted and felt about said character that's going to be worked on yet again today....

  • PeepingPeacockPeepingPeacock Member Posts: 354

    The nerf complaints started shortly after rank reset, I'm positive it was survivors that don't know how to play against nurse getting destroyed by nurses much more experienced at the game than them. The survivors then went on to pitch a fit and that's how all this got started.

  • gantesgantes Member Posts: 1,611

    I wrote a reply on your question for someone I take more seriously

  • noneofyourbusinessnoneofyourbusiness Member Posts: 532
    edited July 2019

    Nurse addons're not OP, this guy is ofc survior main, he can prove this.

    They're just strong, not op lul

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    I'm not implying anything and my experience thus far is that people say I am implying something when they want to treat me like I said something which I didn't. This remains the case here.

  • gantesgantes Member Posts: 1,611

    So since some people are full of [BAD WORD] everyone else is allowed to be?

  • xEaxEa Member Posts: 1,579

    It should be obvious that she is broken in skilled hands, since it requires a lot of skill to reach her full potential. Thats the difference between a very good leatherface and a very good Nurse... The Killing Potential of the Nurse is 10 times bigger then the Killing potential of a regular Killer.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    I'm not going to express disagreement with this. What I am going to do is explore it and hopefully you will realise how I am looking at things. I can spot five topics within just your post here:

    1. Your apparent understanding of point #5 in my opening-post
    2. Killers also becoming worse
    3. Ruin and BBQ creating 'ease'
    4. Survivor nerfs
    5. Killers response

    Addressing each of these separately would probably make a mess as bad as my opening-post but multiplied by five. They can be combined though into a discussion about just one topic which they are all caused by and in turn fuel: the hidden argument between goals and standards.

    Seeking 'balance' is vague and because it's vague, it's assumed that balance is difficult. It's like happiness: if you don't set in stone what the word is supposed to mean, of course it is going to be vague and practically unobtainable. Meanwhile, there are people who are happy because they choose to be and get on with it; they're not fretting about when the next happy-causing thing is going to come along or how they can create it with the specific goal in mind of making themselves or someone else happier.

    Balance is supposed to be something more concrete though: you can measure balance, it's this 'data-driven design' that is so faddish right now. The devs once defined their balance design-goal as '2 kills and 2 escapes', which people then assumed they meant on average. The first problem is that it was a vague statement even if you assume it meant an average: there are three basic ways of determining averages, which can give both the same or different end-numbers. The devs never clarified and of course wouldn't want to because aiming for any kind of average result across all games is also pointless, in a game where the match-making is supposed to work towards that result in the first place.

    It says more about how well-designed the ranking and match-making system is than it does about the state of the game itself. If you make decisions based purely on the intended goals, this is a very poor way of determining balance. A well-functioning match-maker will strive to create 2:2 kills-to-escapes on any average by matching people to that end, no matter how skewed the actual game was.

    Having a set of standards is another way of making decisions. Sometimes those decisions will agree with goal-based decisions, but sometimes they won't. It means if a feature has a certain purpose and it fulfils that purpose, it doesn't get changed simply for doing it's job unless it conflicts with a longer-serving and more-important standard. In which case; why were existing standards ignored?

    Standards keep things consistent and prevent arbitrary conflicts. Like say a Nurse addon that improves chain-blink but removes 1 blink charge, serving an existing standard that difficult things should be more rewarding and vice-versa; only to then get ruined by a radical new idea of reducing default blink charges to 2, for which the justifying standard isn't even explained, only the vague goal of 'she was too strong, she needed balancing'.

    Goals tend to be a single focus, meaning when there are unintended consequences questions can get asked like 'was that part of the plan?'. To avoid embarassment, goal-setters then make the goals really vague, so they make it easier to dodge awkward questions. This does not however mean the problems they're dealing with are that complicated(and even if they are complicated, that's no reason to make them worse): they are so because they made them that way. When measure by standards, goal-based decisions are often riddled with double-standards: different rules for different things, because the stanards are subservient to the desired goals.

    It's even worse when the goals are vague. We're left having to speculate the purpose of things like Ruin and BBQ, based on what they do. The devs don't really talk about stuff beyond what the perks do. We guess BBQ is meant to give the killer an incentive to leave a hook and try to get everyone as early as possible rather than focusing on one person. We guess Ruin is meant to give survivors an optional secondary-objective, which is a frequent request even now, as if Ruin doesn't count.

    When a standard is set, we don't need information that's specific about the goal of every individual feature in the game in order to understand it: we can apply the standards and discuss whether a feature is consistent with them. If no player should be affected by a detrimental status-effect permanently for the whole match, unless it's caused by a core feature or applied by themselves(like No Mither), we can objectively decide when a feature breaks that rule.

    If the devs have standards in their design though, they aren't sharing them. Players are left arguing with each other then with the pattern being familiar: one side is accused of having biased goals, the other is accused of having no standards.

    I am a killer-partisan because I think goals should be subservient to standards.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 614

    Compare her full potential to the fullest potential to survivors and that's one hell of a match. Now for poor ole leatherface against the best survivors he has to go to the cow loop, bend over, and take a spanking, literally

  • CoffengMinCoffengMin Member Posts: 835

    the nerfs to pallets windows, some perks, etc

    the ruin and bbq things are basically that before ruin existed killers could still get 2-4k even with the pallet vacuum,old ds,etc ,and i think that gens took originally 60s so how come killers have so many problems now with ruin existing and all that? my guess is that they got too used to relying on that to apply pressure and now they just cant

    then for bbq , honestly dont let others fool you the auras are really powerful mainly because it takes no time to find another person and down them eventually and for the last 2 ppl it guarantees a 4k if you hook 1 unless they counter it, which for some reason nobody does

    and even then you see them complain about some stuff like OoO (which isnt op, its free wallhacks for the killer on you too imo) and about perks with the only purpose to be used against scummy tactics like bt or new ds

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 2,230

    That's not the definition of broken. Broken means broken regardless of skill, not "in good hands".

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 2,230

    Pallet vacuum had to go and even windows got slight nerfs, there are still semi-infinites around.

    And don't even start with Perks: Killer Perks got nerfed more often and gutted more often.

    Original gens took 70 seconds, but gen rush and looping wasn't a thing back then. That is what has changed, not Killers getting worse.

  • CoffengMinCoffengMin Member Posts: 835

    makes sense, tho i still think they really rely on ruin

  • ASpazNamedSteveASpazNamedSteve Member Posts: 1,501

    Still not convinced that breaking the mechanics at base as a power is balanced, or healthy for the game's balance in general.

    But hey, at least most can agree her addons need serious changes.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    Thanks for the reply, but it's left me with the same unanswered questions.

    1. Why is this? What has changed about the addons or anything that could affect them in a relevant way that has made it so in 2017 addons were a liability and now they are over-powered? There has been a reversal: complaints used to be focused on the Nurse being too-strong, period. The addons have only become a focus more recently and to my eyes this looks to not be based on any verifiable facts but on an opportunity being seized and a band-wagon becoming popular. The most common reason I seem to be seeing for why addons are a problem now is 'lots of people think so', which as a self-reinforcing belief; of course lots of people think so if the main factor in their belief is that it is widely-believed.
    2. Funny thing and people desperate to invent reasons to disagree with me miss this: I do not think the basekit Nurse is fine. I am opposed to changes on the grounds that Nurse is being subjected to standards which survivors resist at every turn ever being applied to them: the maximum known potential. I believe that any feature is as strong as it could potentially be, not as strong as it de facto gets used. De facto Saitama/One-Punch Man is as strong as the last strongest thing he punched, but in actuality he is as strong as the writer decides, knowingly or not. Once this double-standard is gone, I'll then be arguing that the Nurse does not need changing in accordance with the game as-is though, but in accordance with how the game is going to change without survivors being measured by a wholly more generous standard to them than killers are given.
  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 702

    You dont always need to buff or nerf smothing to make it powerful. The meta changes and what wasnt good before can be the strongest thing ever without even being touched.

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,398

    They went against a 5 blink nurse on the game map and depipped her... her winning is just clear proof that shes here to go against teams like the depip squad.... oh wait thisatch I'm speaking of particularly they did perkless...... 5 blink, game map, rank 1, any mediocre nurse even borderline bad nurse should 4ked if nurse is as broken as people think....

    Depip squad lost some V nurse and also won some V nurse... that's an indication of balance when against the cream of the crop.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    This is true, but can not account for why in 2017 that addons were a liability for the Nurse. Then only about nine months ago they became the key to sub-par Nurse's being decent and decent Nurse's being experts and experts still being experts but now it was easier.

    The addons were not changed when Nurse was initially nerfed in 2016. They haven't been changed at all since she was released. If I were to accept that it's entirely possible that it would take two years for a meta to develop based on addons, that still leaves me with the question of what that meta actually is and why it took so long?

    What is the meta exactly? Were Nurse players just simply not trying to use addons to compensate for missing on the first blinks? Well, they were. That was the first thing everyone was trying after the Nurse had her default charges reduced from 3 to 2; people thought that using addons to get the blink back to 3 would mean they could play her exactly as before. That wasn't the case though: all extra-blink addons except for Fragile Wheeze interfere with muscle-memory as they alter the range of blinks by differing amounts. Her move-speed had also been changed, so she could no longer keep-up with a sprinting survivor without blinking; which make accurate blinks more important than distance now.

    It's not the meta that has changed. It's survivors becoming more reliant on mechanics which the Nurse is explicitly designed to counter, in order to get survivors to be less-dependent on them. Survivors didn't adapt though, even after Nurse was nerfed. Then last year in January, the devs made changes in patch 1.9 which nominally were supposed to help survivors predict them by making the visual telegraphs more obvious. In doing so, they made the audio telegraphs less reliable. In attempting to help survivors with their adaptation problem, the devs made it worse; the survivors then didn't adapt to those changes and may not actually be able to.

    If you have experience, being able to anticipate is better than being able to react. Audio telegraphs for blinking are better because they allow a good survivor to anticipate. Visual telegraphs only help them to react, but the Nurse can react to with additional blinks. If addons are really a problem now, then the solution is to revert the 1.9 changes to blinks. It should not be used as the basis for any changes to Nurse that are being loudly called for, on flimsy grounds.

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,398

    This /\ the closest thing imo we've gotten to broken is old legion (on the killer side)

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