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What is going on with the Nurse

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  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277
    edited July 2019

    The game has changed, not just the Nurse. What might not have been OP before can be OP now with map changes, no pallet vacuums, no infinite loops, nerfed BNP, nerfed DS, etc. So it doesn’t matter that her add ons haven’t changed if everything changed around her. A lion in a zoo is fine and you feel safe near it, but if the zoo is suddenly changed into a playground, now the same thing that was fine before (the lion) is now life threatening because of the environment and circumstances.

    Also I’m not understanding the people saying something is only OP if a new player can pick it up and instantly noob stomp? Something being easy to learn doesn’t mean it’s OP (Wraith is easy to learn and can noob stomp), and something being OP doesn’t have to be easy to learn. You can’t balance the game around rank 20s. The fact is a new Nurse CAN noob stomp at brown ranks after playing her a little bit and getting a feel for her blinks, and a really good Nurse can stomp everyone nearly every time at any rank. As someone else said, her OP add ons aren’t gonna help someone new who sucks but they will make decent and good players way better. I think she’s fine without add ons but her add ons need a rework and if you don’t think they do, you might be incredibly biased. I’d be considered a “killer main” (I play both but more killer) and even I, along with many other “killer mains,” think her add ons need adjusting.

    Post edited by scorpio on
  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277

    Also the fact that people are now complaining more about her add ons specifically than the Nurse as a whole in general shows exactly the opposite of what you said, that survivors HAVE adapted and gotten better, because more of them think the Nurse would be okay to go against without her OP add ons. Before they just wanted her nerfed into the ground or gone but it seems more and more people are on board with just her add ons being adjusted. This means they feel confident that they can counter her base kit whereas before just the sound of her blinking at the start of the game was enough to cause 4 insta DCs.

  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 702

    Its in a weird situation. As of now, neither the stealth nor the aggressive playstyle can “counter the nurse” if they revert the change back there might be more chances in the stealth playstyle BUT it is still forcing people to bring certain perks only for her.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 638

    How is Nurse with addons any different than a Huntress with instant throw or extra hatchets? Iridescent heads? Spirit with addons? Clown with pinky finger? What about SWF that has a key? Insta-heals?

    Nothing.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277
    edited July 2019

    Your post is way too long and I’m still not entirely sure what your point is.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277
    edited July 2019

    Are you kidding? The difference is Nurse’s power completely ignores game mechanics. Looping has become the base survivor defense. Nurse completely ignores loops, pallets, windows and walls. She has the mobility if Billy but without the loopability (I’m making that a word.)

    No other killer can avoid being looped to that extent. If the devs are going to keep her power (blink) as is (and I think they should because if done well with properly balanced add ons she could be really fun and interesting to verse) then her add ons need to be very carefully balanced or else she becomes too powerful in the hands of a good player.

    Everything you mentioned above has counters and all those killers can be looped, even Spirit can be mind gamed/looped/countered in various ways. Playing against a good Nurse with OP add ons just isn’t fun and doesn’t feel fair as a survivor.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277

    You definitely don't play killer. Even with the ridiculous condition the game was in before, killers could still win from time to time because survivors weren't as good then as they are now, period. Survivors have gotten better and better over time at looping, which is why the game has needed to nerf survivors in various ways to bring the game back into balance. I disagree with OP completely that survivors have gotten worse and I disagree with you completely that killers have. Survivors are more optimal on gens and at looping than they ever were before and without the changes you've mentioned, killers would never get a kill unless they were playing against actual potatoes.

  • ABannedCatABannedCat Member Posts: 2,106
    edited July 2019

    So survivors should not have to bring certain perks to counter a killer, but killers have to bring certain perks to counter certain mechanics? Perks like Ruin is pretty much a mandatory thing in high ranks. Perks like Enduring, or Spirit Fury are also perks you will see in ALOT of loadouts.

    Survivors can [BAD WORD] around with their perks (or bring no perks at all), but killers cant do the same. Survivors have alot more flexibility in their perkchoices, than killers (unless its Spirit, or Nurse).

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 638

    I think Spirit has much more difficult counterplay than nurse. Nurse requires LOS and insane prediction whereas Spirit simply needs good ears. She can fake windows because she has no vault animation, she is unbelievably strong in so many situations. I would much prefer facing a nurse than spirit.

    You can't say with a straight face that Nurse with addons is any different than anything else with addons.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277
    edited July 2019

    Yes I definitely can and I did, because her power entirely ignores the main game mechanics survivors use to survive. That is what makes her stronger than other killers, and that is why some of her add ons make her OP. I have already said I think base kit Nurse is fine but I don't think Nurse with more than 2 (maybe 3 tops) blinks or super long range blink add ons is necessary nor balanced. Spirit is difficult to play against, but she still has to vault windows, go through doors, and break or go around pallets like any other killer, except the Nurse. Mechanically, Nurse is different from every other killer, and therefore needs to be balanced more carefully and I think adjusting her add ons is the easiest way to balance her without nerfing her too hard. Base kit Nurse is still super strong so even with some nerfs to her add ons she won't become a low tier killer by any stretch of the imagination, and she may actually become more fun to verse.

  • KaoMinervaKaoMinerva Member Posts: 451

    @marth88gaming did you say Nurse needed NERFS?

  • xEaxEa Member Posts: 1,636

    That is your definition of it, and it makes no sense at all.

    Urban Dictionary: Something that is so overpowered,that it makes all other options look terrible.

    Obviously there is nothing in the world that is broken for everybody. The best gun in a Shooter might be broken for 99,9% of the Playerbase, but per your definition it is not broken, since my 98 year old Grandmother would still suck with it...

  • OmansOmans Member Posts: 419

    Good survivors already do bring perks to counter the best killers. Iron will and dead hard will never leave my loadout unless there is a big meta shift because those are necessary if you even want a slim chance of escaping against a good nurse.

    Of course survivors have more flexibility. It is a 4v1 game. If the killer is too powerful, you get what is happening with nurse (4k's left and right). Even being as efficient as possible and still dying because nurse is broken is not good balance. On the other side of the coin, if survivors are too powerful they can be laid-back and clown around. You need good balance in a game like this or it becomes super un-fun for one side, believing you have no chance to win. Simple solution at this stage of the game: nurse nerf to take away her overpowering, dominating wins, and a major map overhaul to put more pressure on survivors, which is how they should feel - pressured. But that would take a lot of work and for behavior to admit that making increasingly larger and more complicated maps is a mistake. That doesn't seem to be the current trend.

    Don't argue with Sluzzy. It's not worth your time. Imagine thinking nurse needs "insane prediction"...

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 638

    When did looping become the only mechanic? Breaking LOS or stealth not a mechanic? If not, why is there perks that enhance it?

    I agree base nurse is strong but so is spirit. Why can spirit have good addons but nurse cannot?

  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 702

    Ruin is not mandatory. You bring perks to slow the game and so do survivor bring perks to survive longer.

    you dont bring perks as killer to counter dead hard for example

  • GoddamnBananasGoddamnBananas Member Posts: 54

    You realize the vast majority of those are 2 man's, right? 4 man swf's are about 5%, and 3 man swf's are either 10% or 15%. On top of that, they've shown that the average survival rate of 40% only goes up to 50% for those playing in swf, so not really the impact you want to believe. People enjoying some games with a friend =/= sweaty tryhard 4 man's every game. You can stop your false equivalency now please.

  • GoddamnBananasGoddamnBananas Member Posts: 54

    Why is it so hard to understand that when survivors have been nerfed so many times, that the strongest killer in the game will look stronger and stronger accordingly? Also, it should be common sense that a character with a high skill ceiling like Nurse's will feel stronger and stronger as everyone continues to get better/more familiar with her, eventually reaching a point where it feels oppressive. Compare her to someone like Trapper, who has a pretty simplistic kit, resulting in a low skill ceiling which most hit ages ago, meaning he feels no more powerful than he did years ago.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 638

    I have issues with this because Nurse's addons are not the strongest in the game. Ask a Myer's main why does he not use 'Tombstone Piece'. He will probably say: I can't pip or I won't get any points. Using Nurse's addon provides an interactive gaming experience and it follows the rules of the pipping system that the devs changed to cater to survivors. This is another case of a dog chasing his tail because here we have gamers using killers and addons so they can win and pip at Rank 1 and get a lot of points for and now we are trying to take that away. The pipping system is VERY flawed!

    Killers can't do their jobs and survivors don't pip when they survive. WTH? What is the objectives in the game? I honestly don't know. Survivors don't know, and the devs don't know.

    You sure as hell won't catch 4 experienced survivors and hook them 3 times with 90% of the killers. That leaves only a few killers than can pip and win at Rank 1.

    The devs are pulled in a million different directions and they don't know what to do. They listened to survivors to make the game fun so they changed the pipping system, that immediately disqualified most of the killers at high rank.

    I think they should change it so if a survivor survives then they pip. If a killer kills 3 or 4 then he pips (like it used to be)....and not only that, give him POINTS! This way a Myer's main can use his strong addons too and we'll see a variety at rank 1.

    Nerfing Nurse is nerfing one of the only viable killers at high ranks and it contradicts what the devs and survivors want killers to do. Let's ask the devs to fix the pipping system and how killers are awarded points so we can see a variety and stop the nerf nurse threads.

  • ChiChi Member Posts: 774

    He did though. He specified saying they were looking at the addons, not the killers base power.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    This pretty much sums up why the devs should pick a set of standards, communicate clearly what those standards are and then nail themselves to them; no more making exceptions and excuses. Player discussion should be less about what we 'think' and more about whether we have an argument for what aspects of the game are consistent with the rest of it.


    I can't accept point #1. To even entertain it as an idea means also having to accept that somehow no one noticed the addons could be used in the way they are now for ages and even after thousands of hours of testing, most agreed addons were a liability in 2017. The more realistic possibility is that there was a relevant change that affected the addons because the addons themselves have never been changed. Not one person has been able to point out to me what that change could be in specifics, I had to go looking myself.

    I revisted the over-looked patch 1.9 changes and hit upon a possible explanation, which so far no one seems to want to engage constructively with. Doing so would cause any reasonable person to have to consider that the issue wasn't so much the changes, but the inability of survivors to adapt to them, as part of a long pattern of them not adapting. MoM was changed not so long ago and now no one is running it. They should be doing though, because it was only after months of stubborn play post-nerfs that killers discovered how to make the Nurse what she is now. Instead of adapting, survivors simply stop engaging with any change they dislike.

    Since Enduring was nerfed, the combo of it with Spirit Fury is no longer enough to get someone before they can reach the next pallet or vault on almost any combination of tiles on any map. You still see killers using it though as no one knows if it might have another possible utility that's been over-looked.

    Regarding #2, I do not see any person who thinks that the Nurse should be changed for reasons of her addons to be a reasonable person who is not promoting double-standards. The Nurse needs changing, but it has nothing to do with her addons: that issue has been chosen purely because it's strategic. They got too much push-back over calling for Nurse nerfs before the addons became the focus; their real intent is exposed every time they come out with 'she ignores game mechanics', an argument that is equally-applicable without addons. Addons are a wedge-issue; the real goal is nerfing the Nurse but leaving survivors intact because 'most people don't play optimally', a standard no killer is afforded: we're expected to play perfectly and then still called entitled over an imagined motive of 'killers think they deserve to 4k'.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 2,230

    Well, that would be because there is NO Perk to counter Dead Hard.

  • ChiChi Member Posts: 774

    ???

    You don't need a perk to counter Dead Hard. You can just bait it out?

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 2,230

    Try to actually read a conversation before chiming in, please, your reply missed the point completely.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277

    1) Because she does! But that doesn’t have to mean she’s OP. The fact that she’s ignores game mechanics though means her add ons need to be very carefully thought out. Right now, Omega Blink is just way too strong, and the fact that ANYONE is defending its existence is very troubling to me. Most of her add ons have downsides because without them, she’s too strong. And yet, Omega gives you a longer blink, a faster blink, and a faster charge (because the charge is the same, but you go further, so for example let’s say to go 10 meters with base kit the charge is 3 seconds, but with Omega you can go 10 meters with a 1.5 second charge. Idk the actual numbers these are just examples to demonstrate the point). The Omega build doesn’t seem to have a downside and that’s my main issue with Nurse. I also don’t think she needs more than 2 blinks but I’d put an absolute cap at 3 tops.

    2) People complained that a lot of stuff was OP earlier in the game’s life that they’ve learned to counter. Also just because some people complain it doesn’t mean the entire community agrees. I don’t think base kit Nurse is OP now but when I first started playing? She seemed impossible to beat. As people get better, their opinions change, and survivors in this game have gotten way better over time, which is why you see most people saying her add ons are the problem now and not her base kit, so I’m not sure what old opinions have to do with anything. People also thought OG Freddy was OP upon release. Doesn’t make it true, it just means when you don’t know how to counter something it feels OP, until you learn to counter it.

  • CarpemortumCarpemortum Member Posts: 4,157

    Why not vs you?

    Trying to bait forum users vs a pro nurse seems like a lopsided experiment catered to intended results.

    Or get pro survivors as well.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277

    Looping is the main mechanic for sure. I wouldn’t call breaking LOS a mechanic, more like obvious, and stealth in this game makes for painfully long boring drawn out matches and the community as a whole has shown this is not what they like, which is why the game has been switching over to a chase based system and away from a stealth based system over the last 3 years. So yeah, looping is the main defense for survivors, and Nurse ignores it completely. That is why she needs her add ons carefully balanced. You can still loop and pallet stun a Spirit, not so much against a Nurse.

    I didn’t say she couldn’t have good add ons, but her current Omega blink build is way too OP in my opinion. I don’t think any of Spirit’s builds are on par with Nurse’s Omega blink.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109

    I don't know how people keep arguing base nurse is fine.

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