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An update to Legion: A buff to Feral Frenzy and a rework to Deep Wound

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Comments

  • No_Mither_No_ProblemNo_Mither_No_Problem Member Posts: 1,476
    edited July 31

    “The ability is deliberately hard to hit because the reward for doing so is far higher than in the current iteration or even the initial iteration.”

    No, the reward is lower because you get even less stall and the shorter fatigue won’t matter if a loop is nearby.

    ”The mending time is mostly because no one likes mending and thus making it as short as we can afford to is good”

    Who cares if nobody likes mending? Nobody likes getting caught in a bear trap. Nobody likes being vomited on and getting injured without being hit. Nobody likes Madness III. Yet at the same time, nobody in their right mind is asking for those garbage abilities to be nerfed. Taking 15 seconds to mend is not a big deal; if you don’t like it, get over yourself.

    ”the power (due to the shorter cooldown among other things) is much more lethal”

    Except you nerfed its lethality by giving it even more counterplay in the form of pressing the space bar at loops, which already hard-counters it as is. And, again, I will repeat: No matter how “lethal” his power is, it’s still not lethal enough to make up for Legion’s complete and utter lack of stall and map pressure—something you nerfed even further in this rework.

    “has utility in being a whispers lite.”

    By changing Killer Instinct to auras, you are changing it from a tracking function that will always reveal nearby Survivors to a tracking function that has ways of being blocked or hidden by the Survivors, so you’re actually giving it less utility.

    ”So having mending take too long in addition to that is too much.”

    15 seconds is not a long time. It takes more time to heal somebody.

    ”That being said don't underestimate the presence of skill checks. It means that the Legion can approach someone mending more easily letting him take advantage of the brief moment of vulnerability in one way or another.”

    1. They're not any more vulnerable sitting still to mend than they are sitting still to mend with skill checks.
    2. Are you aware of how easy great skill checks are to hit? A 10-second action does not need those.
  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 4,307

    ANYTHING can be balanced with the right Numbers. You just need to actually work through it.

    This is why I try to avoid variables when describing an idea. Instead of just assuming that a specific number is fine, I actually calculate which numbers to use.

    For example 5.6 M/S is needed to help make up for the 1 second self stun. Because part of the whole point of doing this it doesn't COMPLETELY make up for it (he gains 1 extra meter) but it means it's a reasonable 6.6 meters gained on the survivor (which means you would get pretty close to a survivor before using it). Old legion was 7.68 meters btw.

    If you wanted to make it completely cancel out btw you would want a speed of 5.78 M/S. But the idea here was to make it so you'd need to be close to hit the first Survivor but that additional survivors could be relatively far away (19.2 meters to be exact).

    For example if you walk up to Survivors working on a generator within 5 meters (probably with M&A) and activate Frenzy, and they both start running in opposite directions. The first survivor you will hit in 5 seconds no problem, the second survivor you will barely hit using a lunge.

  • No_Mither_No_ProblemNo_Mither_No_Problem Member Posts: 1,476

    So, you basically just admitted that Feral Frenzy’s hit-chaining capabilities are still weak with your rework, further nerfing any pressure he may have in exchange for a more “lethal” four-hit-down power.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 4,307

    In both the current and past version of Legion he wouldn't be even close to hitting both Survivors in my Situation.

    Old Legion would be 7.94500 meters short from the 2nd survivor and Current Legion would be 10 meters short.

    Being able to hit these survivors anyways despite a decent initial distance (5 meters is more than you would give credit for) is excellent chain hitting capability's. No other Killer comes anywhere close to damaging Survivors that quickly and unless your name is Sally or Max, Killers don't tend to cover ground as quickly as you would expect even when using their powers.

    Even Spirit who's power is insanely fast only gains about 7 meters depending on addons. (2 second activation time so +8 initial distance, 7.04-4=3.04, 3.04*5= 15.2, 15.2-8=7.2)

    This is only a little bit below that for the first hit and more than double that for any additional hits.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 460
    edited July 31

    The 10 seconds to mend was the old mend time and people already complained about it but that isn't really important, as you said. But with skillchecks, they must be aware of 2 things: when a skillcheck appears and when legion is coming to down them. it may not seem like it, but makes a huge difference between pressing a button and looking around with no problem and pressing a button but being careful about [BAD WORD] it up and being careful watching when the killer is coming.

    I don't know why people call it 4 hit down because the 1st and 2nd hit are basically one because there is no way in hell that you can't hit the same person again after aplying deep wounds.

    I think it ALL doesn't come down only to math because there are a few variants that you have to make to count after the math is done, adjusting it. Just by the fact that people are careful about the skillchecks they are consuming time to when to mend and where, this can give you some more time. The reduced cooldown by canceling it is good even with a loop nearby. Breaking pallets faster is obvious that it will result in a lot less loops and safe places. With the rework, survivors are also in need to heal or, otherwise, you have a frank's mixtape on them (same with exposed). No, it isn't broken. Why? Because you can't vault pallets as you could before and it has counterplay. The stall potential is ginormous in the contrary to what you said. Now people don't even bother about healing or being exposed vs Legion. This rework makes it needed to heal.

    Explain to me how this is bad to you?

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 4,307
    edited July 31

    Ok this is actually getting a bit off topic tbh.

    If you want to talk more about our rework then you can comment on the thread for it.

    The existence of an alternative rework idea doesn't invalidate this idea anyways.

  • MarcusMarcus Member Posts: 1,362

    Spirit's charge time without add-ons is 1,5 seconds, not 2.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 4,307
  • No_Mither_No_ProblemNo_Mither_No_Problem Member Posts: 1,476

    @NuclearBurrito I was in the middle of writing a counterclaim, and I intend to finish writing it.

    “Being able to hit these survivors anyways despite a decent initial distance (5 meters is more than you would give credit for) is excellent chain hitting capability's.”

    Except the calculations you provided are just running in a straight line. It does not include forcing the Legion to jump over a window or pallet or the Survivor having an Exhaustion Perk—and between the density of loops and how common Exhaustion Perks are, a Survivor is far more likely to have one of those at their disposal than they are to be totally defenseless.

    Let’s look at a scenario that is much more likely to take place.

    You approach 2 Survivors on a generator with Monitor and Abuse. You know you can get to them faster with Frenzy and still get a hit, so you activate it immediately before they notice you. They notice you when you are 8 meters away (because let’s be real, if you let a non-stealth Killer get within 5 meters of you, you need glasses) and run in opposite directions—one to the left, one to the right, but both in the opposite direction of you.

    At a rate of 1.6 meters per second, it would take 5 seconds to hit the first Survivor. In that time, the other Survivor is gaining distance on you at a rate of 1 meter per second, for a total of 13 meters between you and them.

    If Frenzy lasts for 12 seconds instead of 6, then you would theoretically be able to catch the Survivor, because you would need 8.125 seconds to catch up. However, again—loops and Exhaustion Perks. Sprint Burst would make it even tougher to get to them by increasing the distance gained to 15.2, Lithe would allow them to outrun you with ease by waiting until you get close to them and then vaulting a window, and Balanced Landing has the same effect as Lithe except you’d need to camp a place to fall from instead.

    Moreover, even without Lithe, vaults are very powerful against the Legion. Let’s say the Survivor vaults over the window in a pallet-window jungle gym (since that’s where most windows are situated) after you have chased them for 5 seconds. At this point, you have 7 seconds of your power left, and there is 5 meters of distance between you and the Survivor. It would take 3.125 seconds to get to the Survivor had they not vaulted, but they did indeed press the space bar, so now you have an obstacle in your way.

    You can’t mindgame the Survivor because they can see you through the window and around the corners of the wall and will mindgame right back, so you have to force it. You take approximately 0.9 seconds to get to the point where they vaulted, and then another 0.9 seconds to vault it, for a total of 1.8 seconds of your power. Assuming the Survivor ran straight forward, you would close 1.44 meters between you and them in the time it took to approach the vault, but they would gain 3.6 meters on you in the time it took for you to actually vault, so they end up gaining 2.16 meters on you. Since they vaulted when you were 5 meters away, that means they are now 7.16 meters away from you, and you have 5.2 seconds of your power left. It would take 4.475 seconds to catch up to them now, so you should be clear, right? Not really, because that’s just a Survivor running forward, ignoring any more pallets, windows, or jungle gyms they might run into—which, given the placement of vaults either tends to be either near a pallet or just outright facilitating one, they most likely will. They could just as easily find another vault or pallet and force you to circumnavigate it once again—except now, you don’t have 7 seconds of your power; you have 1 or 2. So you just lose it and end up chaining no hits, ultimately ending up in failure once more.

    You might think at that point that this was the Survivor outskilling and outplaying the Legion, but the problem with that that statement is, the Survivor did not do anything special to trick or juke the Legion. They did not dodge a hit. They did not confuse the Legion. They did not mindgame. All they did was run straight forward and occasionally vault. That’s it. And they still shut down the Legion’s entire power. They didn’t do anything except barrel forward, and there was still nothing the Legion could do.

    And this is an extremely generous scenario, in my opinion, simply because most Survivors will see the Legion before they are even within his Terror Radius, let alone when he is within 8 meters of them, unless the map is something like Shelter Woods or Yamaoka.

    That doesn't even include the second Survivor hiding in a locker while you were chasing someone else or having Distortion equipped—counters you knowingly implemented into this rework.

  • No_Mither_No_ProblemNo_Mither_No_Problem Member Posts: 1,476
    edited July 31

    “The 10 seconds to mend was the old mend time and people already complained about it but that isn't really important, as you said. But with skillchecks, they must be aware of 2 things: when a skillcheck appears and when legion is coming to down them. it may not seem like it, but makes a huge difference between pressing a button and looking around with no problem and pressing a button but being careful about [BAD WORD] it up and being careful watching when the killer is coming.”

    You act like watching for skill checks requires actual vigilance. It doesn’t. It takes almost 0 of a decent Survivor’s attention span to hit even great skill checks, let alone good ones. They will, in no way, impact the Survivor’s ability to keep a lookout for the Legion. They are small, easy to deal with, and have no audiovisual disturbances significant enough to be a hindrance to your attention span. At the absolute worst, they will hear you coming as they get a skill check and be forced to fail it, putting a single extra second or two into their mend bar. In exchange, they now have a shorter overall mend time and can speed it up even further with great skill checks.

    What a great idea.

    ”I don't know why people call it 4 hit down because the 1st and 2nd hit are basically one because there is no way in hell that you can't hit the same person again after aplying deep wounds.”

    They call it a 4-hit down because you need to hit someone 4 times to down them.

    “Just by the fact that people are careful about the skillchecks they are consuming time to when to mend and where, this can give you some more time.”

    Already debunked that nonsense, so I won’t bother now.

    “The reduced cooldown by canceling it is good even with a loop nearby.”

    It doesn’t stop you from being looped, so no, it’s not good if a loop is nearby.

    “Breaking pallets faster is obvious that it will result in a lot less loops and safe places.”

    Breaking pallets doesn’t matter when he has no stall. That’s why Clown is a bad Killer.

    “With the rework, survivors are also in need to heal or, otherwise, you have a frank's mixtape on them (same with exposed). No, it isn't broken. Why? Because you can't vault pallets as you could before and it has counterplay.”

    See, except they won’t heal because if it has counterplay, they’ll just, you know, counter it, effectively removing the need to heal. However, a more prevalent issue than that is that having good chase potential doesn’t encourage healing. It encourages genrushing even harder because a good chase Killer still can’t stop that without good stall or map pressure, of which this Legion has none. Let me repeat, if chase potential was a worthy trade-off for stall and pressure, then Clown, Freddy, and Faceghost would all be top-tier Killers.

    “The stall potential is ginormous in the contrary to what you said. Now people don't even bother about healing or being exposed vs Legion. This rework makes it needed to heal.”

    As described by my previous point, it does the exact opposite of what you say—it makes Survivors ignore healing and do gens even harder.

    “Explain to me how this is bad to you?”

    Because none of what you just said is true.

    Post edited by No_Mither_No_Problem on
  • MarcusMarcus Member Posts: 1,362

    Yes, it is.

    This video has all values related to Spirit's power and here you can see that her default charge time is 1,5 seconds ( and the guy from the video tested this ) : https://youtu.be/NWZIq4SVgos.

    This video also has all values for Spirit's add-ons, so if you want and have time, you can calculate with what add-ons she gains the more distance.

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