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Why do people want desperately a nerf to Spirit?

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Comments

  • NMCKENMCKE Member, Trusted Posts: 5,589

    You can actually hear her footsteps, but if you do, you're basically guaranteed to get hit.

  • ZertixZertix Member Posts: 115

    No, this is not true.

    If you are guessing as a spirit, you are doing it wrong. From the survivor perspective, it is like flipping a coin but the odds are not in your favor. From the spirit perspective, you don't need to guess at all. Just stand still for a few seconds and react to what the survivor is doing.

    Spirit has many tools to track you down: grass moving, collision, breathing, grunting and scratch marks. The survivor on the other hand has zero information about the spirit.

    I have been playing spirit a lot lately. The only time I need to guess is if the survivor vaulted a strong window and doubled back or not.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,941

    NO

    That's not how that works

    If something is a guessing game in this sense for one side then it MUST necessarily be a guessing game for the other side as well.

    If the Survivor has to guess then the Spirit ALWAYS must guess, no matter how much information they have.

    This is because during a mindgame the correct option for one side is based off of the other side's prediction of you.

    The Survivor is trying to predict your next move and is acting based on it. (or your previous move in the case of fake phasing)

    You as the Spirit are trying to predict what the Survivor's prediction of you will be in order to decide your next move.

    Since the Survivor knows that is the case that means he needs to predict your prediction of his prediction and so on.

    This is true for any and all mindgames. Since you are trying to predict their NEXT move that means you could straight up remove the invisibility aspect and STILL have mindgames sometimes (but not nearly as often).

  • WeederickWeederick Member Posts: 567

    Maybe let Spirit work harder for the first hit. Since the second hit is free without Iron Will, get used to not get hit in the first palce, then she has no sound to follow and is a worse killer in the chase at 110%.

    Its like reverse Wraith who gets a free first hit

  • MegMain98MegMain98 Member Posts: 1,402

    What in this game takes skill though? It’s not meant to be skillful nor will it ever.

    I guess since I can hide my red light and moonwalk I’m all of a sudden full of skill.

    I can 360 a killer or blend in a bush with Claudette so I guess I have more skill than all my other teammates.

    Damn...it’s just a video game, people think everything has to take skill. What a bunch of gamers XD

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,941

    Then where is this Survivor guess coming from. A guessing game implies a correct guess. And which guess is correct is dependent on what the Spirit thinks you will guess. This leads to the recursive function that defines a mindgame.

    You cannot have a guessing game like this on only 1 side.

  • deadbyhitboxdeadbyhitbox Member Posts: 282

    Yes, that is where Spirit actually has some counter play. When you aren't injured. I'm saying that there should also be counterplay for when you do get injured. Because, like I said before, once you're hit there is nothing you can do but hope they're deaf.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 5,122

    I've said this before, but I don't think this will solve any problems people complain about and will likely in fact just create new problems. Sometimes the fact she has collision can be a limiting factor. For example, if I could chase someone and just pass right through them I could just outrun you to the pallet, appear in front of you and completely block the pallet. With collision I either have to come out of phase walk to attack from behind or go around to the other side of the pallet which is slower.

    By removing collision you don't nerf her as much as you just allow new tactics. The net result will be the same as it is now.

  • WeederickWeederick Member Posts: 567

    Iron Will counters that second hit, but perk dependancy ain't perfect. I kinda just accept that she gets the second hit, if she managed to get the first. At some point, for every killer, you lost to a killers power. When Nurse sees you, when Billy is right behind you in a deadzone, when Spirit got you injured, when Huntress made you loop a low tile... Its more about preventing that. She has to work pretty hard for the first hit though, unless people can hear footsteps (which i cant with my headset).

  • noneofyourbusinessnoneofyourbusiness Member Posts: 397

    if this killer was about skill and prediction not about easy tracking she would be fine

  • CroquedeadCroquedead Member Posts: 84

    As someone that actively despises Spirit, she does not need a nerf.


    Get good survivors. She’s not nearly as strong as people say

  • Locker_MonsterLocker_Monster Member Posts: 496

    Easy tracking.

    She literally cannot see Survivors when she's ghosting. She gets the same scratchmarks/moving plants/blood as EVERY OTHER KILLER.

    But somehow, NOT seeing Survivors makes her track people EASIER.


    ...WHAT!?

  • FishFry247FishFry247 Member Posts: 675

    She doesn't need a nerf, just a prayer beads change or make the foot steps more audible

  • MarcusMarcus Member Posts: 1,120

    She doesn't even get blood without an ultra rare add-on.

  • Locker_MonsterLocker_Monster Member Posts: 496

    And people say this makes her a BETTER tracker!? 😂🤣😂

  • CroquedeadCroquedead Member Posts: 84

    Yeah but then you look at the actual bullshit killers (that still don’t need a nerf due to how strong survivors are): Nurse, Hag and Hillbilly. None of these killers feel that much more fair in chase.


    Good Nurses pretty much never lose, good Hags are everywhere at once and everyone dies in less than two minutes and don’t get me started on Billy

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 5,122

    This is how she was on PTB and she was complete trash because of it.

  • MegMain98MegMain98 Member Posts: 1,402

    The only reason people complain about “no counterplay” is they can’t loop her. How do you counterplay a Leatherface? Loop him. Ghostface? Loop him. Myers? Loop him. Doctor? Loop him. Billy? Loop him. Plague? Don’t cleanse and loop her.

    Nurse, Spirit, and to an extent Hag aren’t able to be looped which is why you get so many complaints. Spirit and Nurse have the power role in a chase like no other killers do.

    By the way, Iron Will isn’t ONLY a counter to Spirit. It is effective against every killer, try it and you’ll never wanna get rid of it.

    Also how come all of a sudden Spirit gets complaints? Last year she didn’t get NEARLY as many complaints. It’s almost like people have realized how good is so now I guess we need nerfs.

  • Locker_MonsterLocker_Monster Member Posts: 496


    Spirit is suddenly getting complaints because devs said they will look at Nurse, so now every Survivor looking to easy mode the game is moving to Spirit. After her; Billy. Then Bubba. Then probably Trapper. People will want his traps to glow neon so they don't step in them.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,941

    Just because there is a guess doesn't mean there isn't skill. Everyone has biases in what they will do in any situation. So the skill is in figuring out the biases of the Spirit you are facing and then acting accordingly depending on the specific situation.

  • MegMain98MegMain98 Member Posts: 1,402

    So I guess let’s nerf Stridor now huh?

    A lot of killers aren’t very fun to play against sadly :/

    Admittedly so she isn’t very fun to go against but there isn’t very much to do that wouldn’t completely butcher her. As @thesuicidefox said, if you remove collision while phasing, Spirit players will just adapt and find mew methods.

    She predicted where you were going and followed you scratches and injured moans, wouldn’t exactly call that lucky.

    The game isn’t meant to be skillful nor are a majority of the killers “skillfull”. Tell me how Leatherface’s power or Myers’ power are in the SLIGHTEST bit skillful?

  • MegMain98MegMain98 Member Posts: 1,402

    I’m doubtful they are messing with base Nurse. Her add-ons are getting changed though.

    I can only imagine somebody really complaining about Leatherface. “hE hAs An InStAdOwN pLz NeRf HiM!!!!”

    If the trend did continue it would be Billy, Hag, then Huntress.

  • MarcusMarcus Member Posts: 1,120

    I actually saw people already complaining about green add-ons on Plague. Apparently, these add-ons are "toxic".

  • GrootDudeGrootDude Member, Trusted Posts: 10,658

    I rarely see people calling for spirit nerfs, it isn’t even comparable to when people were calling for a nurse nerf.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 5,122

    That's because too many survivors are just clueless how to run from Spirit. When I'm Spirit, this is how most survivors act:

    1) Run in straight obvious lines.

    2) Run directly to a pallet or window when it's pretty obvious I am phase walking after them. Then vault the window or drop the pallet, which I predict and catch them on the other side.

    3) Do absolutely nothing to hide their scratch marks, they just run around without a care in the world then I follow them and catch them.

    4) Try to do really stupid stuff, like vault a pallet into my face when I do the stand still mind game, or run away such that I still have complete line of sight on them.

    5) Try to loop pallets when I can just outplay them with phase walk. Instead you should just drop the pallet and play around it. It's way more effective than trying to loop the pallet.

    Fact is most survivors are just morons when it comes to Spirit. I can immediately tell who will be an easy catch when I chase them.

    The survivors that waste my time or escape a chase don't do any of this stuff. They actually make the smart and optimal decisions. They actually understand they need to predict what I'm doing and be unpredictable. And it works.

    Spirit is not infallible. She has weakness, but like Nurse those weaknesses are not the same as other killers. You can outplay a Spirit, it's not easy but you can do it.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,941

    For example:

    Lets say you've just dropped a pallet in front of a Spirit and she now appears to be standing still.

    She is either:

    A - Phase walking to the other side

    or

    B - Standing still for real

    Technically there are variations for option A but for our purposes they don't matter.

    Now you can either

    A - Run away from the pallet

    or

    B - Vault the Pallet and run the other way

    Preforming option A will avoid a hit if she's standing still because from that point the amount of time it takes to react to you running in order to phase walk and hit you is too long to actually catch up around a loop. Especially if there is a window to run to. Again this option has variations but they don't matter for our purposes.

    However, if she was already phasing then she will likely reach you in time anyways.

    Thing is, option B exists. If she immediately phases and runs around, but you vault just before she actually gets there then she won't have quite enough time to catch up to you when you leave in the opposite direction.

    An important thing to note here is that by the time you make the decision to either run or vault the Spirit has already committed to an option. You could be fully viable and these options wouldn't be any different. No iron will is required for any of this.

    Anyways, this specific interaction will happen a lot against a spirit. It's a common situation when facing one so it's not unreasonable for it to happen more than once.

    The first time in a game when this happens it may very well be a true guessing game. Technically a Spirit is statistically more likely to chose one option over the other but I don't know which option off the top of my head and likely neither do you, so whatever fine it's a 50/50 and you can't improve those odds realistically.

    But what about the 2nd time?

    1 example isn't quite enough to build up a pattern with any reliability. But it IS data you can work with. A good spirit will try to be unpredictable, while a bad one won't think to. If anyone else has been chased you might be able to make an educated guess on if you are facing a good Spirit or not based off of chase time for those survivors. Also a higher rank obviously implies a better Killer. Either way you can use those ques to tell the difference.

    Against a Bad spirit there is usually a simple formula that tends to work:

    If their previous mindgame attempt worked they will do the same thing again. If it failed they will switch.

    This doesn't hold in all cases but it should let you do better than random chase.

    Now against a better Spirit this isn't quite enough. Some will mix it up immediately and others will wait and THEN mix it up. One thing to note though is that they will almost never do the same thing 3 times in a row unless you got hit on both of the previous attempts. Or in other words: If you are being predictable then they will continuously exploit it.

    This leads to things like conditioning, where you deliberately act according to an obvious pattern in the early game (for example always running immediately) in order to break the pattern later for a free juke when you need it more. As a Spirit this can be caught by noting when an otherwise good Survivor is acting super predictable in 1 situation in particular and not others but even then it's hard to know when exactly they will break the pattern. A Spirit can do the same trick and will have the same signs when doing it.

    In any case. Against a Good Spirit it will usually take about 3 instances to establish a pattern. You can get somewhere with just 2, but 3 is where you can actually make predictions with some real consistency as opposed to just slightly better than RNG. From there it is just a matter of applying the pattern and seeing if there are situations in which they will break the pattern. The more situations you see the more reliably you can dodge them.

    That's actually why I think the Spirit leaving a trail when exiting phase would be a really important thing. Knowing exactly what the Spirit's play was makes it much easier to determine what the pattern is for any given Spirit. But even without that you still have situations like the Pallet one where you have all the data you need just by seeing where they exit.

    Just pointing out btw. She will need to chase you a minimum of 4 times per game unless you get hook farmed or something. Which means even if she gets a hit all 3 times while you are still figuring out her pattern you still have enough time to do it and put it into action before you die.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,941

    TLDR: Beating a Spirit comes down to pattern recognition.

    Better Spirits will have more complex patterns which thus take longer to decipher.

    Human psychology means that it will never be truly random unless they use a tool such as a coin to MAKE it random.

    They won't use such a tool because they are doing the same thing as what you should be doing by attempting to decipher YOUR pattern.

  • deadbyhitboxdeadbyhitbox Member Posts: 282
    edited August 17

    Yeah, but at least with someone like Billy you can either be outplayed by their saw skills, or you can prevent them from being able to use the saw. I feel like Billy is the perfect killer because he's strong, but has counterplay. With Spirit, you basically just die if you're injured. And without a perk, there is literally nothing you can do about it. I feel like the only change needed is either no collision in phase, and maybe make tracking slightly more difficult when in phase, or just upping the values of phase (increased speed, maybe make cooldown a bit less, etc) but making the sound directional. I feel like it would just be nice to give her some actual reliable counter play aside from a specific perk. But, this should all happen once gen times are increased a little.

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