Why Not Tier 1 Perks?



  • PeanitsPeanits Dev, Community Manager Posts: 5,690

    There's actually a catch to that as well: If they showed up every other level, you'd still have quite a bit of grind. Just going to use the survivor side as an example again:

    65 perks, one every other level. That's a total of 130 levels.

    Currently, you would need 195 levels.

    With the bloodweb change proposed, you would need 118 levels.

    (One level for each perk between 1-40, then one level for two perks for the rest.)

    If you compare having a single fully leveled perk every other level and the bloodweb change that's coming, it would actually take a few more levels. You'd also still run out of perks at level 28 as a new player, for what it's worth.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764
    edited August 2019

    Did you read the thread? I want you to look at the math. 74,700,000 to max all survivors assuming they are level 50, and excluding the P3 grind and teachable unlock grind. Does that look healthy to you or even possible?

    If the perks are all dropped to tier 1, then you can get some form of compensation through a skin, auric cells, shards, or BP. I don't care about compensation, cuz I want to actually be able to prestige/max out my characters without wasting hundreds if not thousands of hours to finally unlock everything.

    Also, do you watch any streams at all? There are people who literally just dump BP into the same killer/survivor that's been maxed out for months. They don't level anyone else. They just level the same characters and hoard addons/items. You run Plunder/Ace, but that's you. A new player won't have those. Also, I'm not killing the main objective you are literally just exaggerating for the sake of it.

    There is 19 survivors, and 17 killers. It takes 1.5mil~ BP to prestige, that's 4.5~mil BP to prestige 3. 50k~ BP to fill out a bloodweb assuming you get good RNG. 216 levels of perks on the survivor side. That's roughly 1.5mil~ to hit 50, then after assuming no dead webs with no perks which they do show up, you'd still need 166 levels, 83 with these proposed changes. That's 4.15mil BP~ to get all perks unlocked. 5.65mil BP to get P3 all perks unlocked with the new system.

    This is also assuming you've gotten every surv to 40 to unlock their teachables, which is roughly 1.25~mil BP. That's 23,750,000 BP, which this new system doesn't affect at all. Read that again. THIS NEW SYSTEM DOESN'T HELP THAT GRIND AT ALL! So, no my proposed change wouldn't kill the main objective, or prestige, or anything. In fact many people refuse to prestige cuz the grind is so absurdly bad. Prestige isn't special either, it's bloody clothes, and 3% extra rarity increase in the webs.

    BHVR sells cosmetics, prestiging isn't worth anything anymore bar bragging rights and a grind to keep you playing the game if you're into that. However, if that goal is unobtainable then people might just forego it, and even quit like many of my friends have due to the horrible balance, and the insane grind. Now, fun fact, everything I mentioned is just the survivor side. Imagine wanting to prestige 3 all killers, and unlock all their teachable, and max them out? Killers aren't skins either, so you can't just pick one and have the same build or experience.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764
    edited August 2019

    Sorry, I meant to say up to 30. After 30 you'd get a perk every level. My bad for the mix-up, I thought I'd typed that out. Also, my math was with the 15, again my mistake. Either way you'd get a teachable at 30 so that would kinda work out better.

    If it were just to go 2 every level, then even out at 30, 1 perk per level, you'd have a bit of a dryspell if you were a new player, but overall it would cut the grind once you unlock teachables. Either way, the new system doesn't help new players, or even a some of the vets who don't have 40+ characters. You could even implement this system as well so a new player could feel confident about leveling up and prestiging multiple killers. I'd actually get to level mine which would be fantastic.

    After fixing my wording that'd be roughly 28 perks at 30, teachable at 30, 35, 40, so 8 perks in between those, then you'd need 37 levels after 40, so 77 levels overall. Which is totally manageable, and makes prestige much more enticing. Meaning more healthy grind, and new players can prestige/level faster too.

    Thanks for catching my mistake in my fix. All fixed now would be 77 vs 118.

  • TheBeanTheBean Member Posts: 2,320
    edited August 2019

    I think if you work it out... You'd be looking at roughly a 40% reduction in the bloodweb grind for both sides.

    At first when I read the changes, I didn't think it would be much.. but 40% seems like a good reduction. When trying to get all the perks on a character.

    That is if... You get 1 perk per level up to 39... Then get 2 perks per level after that.

    That also doesn't factor in prestiging.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764

    Doesn't factor prestiging, or the grind to unlock every single teachable. 57 for survivors, 51 for killers, so 108 teachables over all. That adds an extra 153 levels for killers, 171 levels for survivors. If you factor in 3 levels per teachable, and not the teachables being unlocked.

  • TheBeanTheBean Member Posts: 2,320

    @Caretaker but yeah it helps more for grinding after level 40... so new players still need to spend allot of time to unlock those teachables. Since the changes doesn't really help with that.

    Would almost just be better not to have to unlock teachables through the web. Just buying the character should automatically make their teachables available. If they wanted to help the newers players more.

  • SaitamfedSaitamfed Member Posts: 684

    @Caretaker Seems like the comment that I was going to write got erased for some reason but here we go, writing all of it again.

    For start. Unless you're an obsesive collectionist, you don't need every perk in-game for every survivor in-game, the same applies for killers. Most players just go for the theachables only and then level their main.

    About the maths, they are the "cold" and sad true but you're a bit mistaken with them.

    Let's say the Stranger Thing DLC is in-game. That makes 71 survivor perks with 3 tiers each one. We will be using the current system of one perk per bloodweb

    71 x 3 = 213 - 3 (because you have the base survivors perks at tier I) = 210 bloodwebs.

    The next calculation you do this

    210 x 50 k (this is the average of blood points wasted in bigs bloodwebs, mean level 40-50 ones) = 10,500,000 total BP to win every perk in the game with a single survivor

    But, you commit the mistake of thinking that you spend 50 k in every single bloodweb. The next ones are the results of a survivor bloodwebs with a character with prestige level one (yes I don't have all characters prestiged).

    In the first five ones I spend an average of 10k to 20k (19 k was the bigger honestly), from 5 to level 10 an average of 15k to 25k , from 11 to 15 an average from 20k to 25k, from level 16 to level 20 from 20k to 30k. I didn't go further from level 20 but let's assume you spend 50k points (wich is insane because the biggler bloodwebs start appearing at level 30 and not a lot of them until 40)

    So, let's do maths and I'll assume you spend the maximun instead the average in the first blood webs. Shall we?

    1 to 5 levels 20k * 5 bloodwebs = 100k

    6 to 10 level 25k * 5 bloodwebs = 125k

    11 to 15 level 25k * 5 bloodwebs = 125k

    16 to 20 level 30k *5 bloodwebs = 150k

    That makes you need 500k BP to reach level 20 and that's as an overstatenment. Generally you need 500k BP to reach level 30 and that happens even in prestige 3 that you need 350k as the highest value but I took the bigger numbers and not the average ones.

    *If you prestige the survivors/killers you don't need to spend that big amount in the biggest bloodwebs to obtain all perks, when you simply reach level 50, go for the prestige so it will be easier and cheaper if we talk in BP as money

    Let's assume you have to spend 500k BP to reach level 20 (wich as I said it's impossible)

    So we already have 20 perks from the 210 bloodwebs, that means we have 190 bloodwebs left

    190 * 50k of bloodpoints (and as I said 50k are in the biggest bloodwebs, so it's an overstatement) = 9,500,000 BP

    Now, let's use the averages that means 500k BP for 30 levels (10 perks less to reach the biggest amount)

    So 180 * 50k (again as an overstatement because from 30 to 50 the bloodwebs are smaller) =9,000,000 BP

    Now, let's use the new bloodweb but just in the last 20 levels (We can grab two perks).

    50K * 90 (we grab two perks in each bloodweb so we only need half of them) = 4,500,000 BP


    The grind needs to be lowered but this new system helps a lot to lower it

    Let's change the values a bit

    From level 30 to 40 mostly, you have an average from 35 to 40k of BP

    Let's use the new system as well grabbing two perks in each level

    20 * 40k =800,000 BP

    So we only need 80 bloodwebs (180 perks - 20 = 160/2 , remember we need half of the total bloodwebs to obtain the 160 perks left)

    80 * 50k = 4,000,000 BP


    I know the grind is absolutely big but the new system actually helps, maybe grabbing two perks from level 30 instead of 40 will be better.

  • SaitamfedSaitamfed Member Posts: 684

    Again as I said, you don't really need every perk in-game with every survivor. Let's be realistic How much perks do you use? I think I am using the same 5 or 6 perks from months. The SWF teams keep running Adrenaline, DS, BT so they can get new perks but they will likely use the same.

    The same goes for new players, they test perks and when they see one that likes them, then they will use it even if they have another 50 perks in-game

    Also, there are no dead bloodwebs, every bloodweb gives you at least one perk (even if it's useless).

  • JordanMaliciousJordanMalicious Member Posts: 87

    Looking at the masses, I'm going to assume most players do not Prestige 3 every single killer and survivor and also get every single perk for them. That seems ridiculous.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764

    Wanna know why most people don't prestige? It's cuz the grind is absolutey ridiculous and puts Chinese MMOs to shame. If the grind was somewhat manageable and accessible to even the hardcore players then they'd probably prestige.

    The new system only helps once you break level 40. New players won't get the full benefit of this as they still have to not only buy/unlock those characters, but get them to 40 as well. Which is why I say this system doesn't help new players at all and mine would.

    That'd be a neat fix. Definitely would be nice to not waste a level on teachables.

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 1,580

    I mean, whatever. Behaviour should figure out a way to:

    a) Compress perks into one single tier apiece, because the 3-tier system serves no purpose outside of arbitrarily extending the grind, and makes it a significant hassle to pick up the perks you are looking for on any given character.

    b) Reduce the barrier to unlocking teachable perks, because it forces a new player to commit an insane amount of BP and multiple characters to even have a shot at putting together a viable build on even one single character.

    Maybe the current system is a no-go for these ideas, because a new player will run out of items after 14 levels or whatever. We're not asking you to hit that wall and give up on it, we're asking you to figure it out and fix it, because it's not player-friendly at all. Like I said earlier, this new change helps players who are knee-deep already -- but it does nothing to help newbies, nor does it do anything to let you target specific perks that you really want.

    @Peanits Are you guys even on the same page about what an issue the grind is? Do you not believe a player should reasonably be able to unlock all perks on a survivor main plus the majority of killers inside of, say, 1,000 hours of play? I would love to hear Behaviour's perspective on it, and what you feel is a healthy and acceptable target for this kind of progress.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764

    @Rydog How do you feel about that fix to my change? Tier 1 perks. Every 2 levels you gain a perk up to 30. Then you get a perk every level. This would cut it down to roughly 77 levels per character, ignoring the usual teachable grind which with this change and possibly a recycler would be totally fine and still keep the grind intact.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 6,289

    This +1.

    Simply adding the potential to acquire 2 perks bloodweb after lv 40 is a much bigger QoL change than most yet realise.

  • anarchy753anarchy753 Member Posts: 2,111

    The only concern I have with this change is that you're still racing against the entity.

    If, say, BBQ, Ruin, Monstrous Shrine and Insidious are on a web together, I can spend 4 nodes before the Entity starts, OR I can take a perk and another perk will be taken.

    If I work my way up to BBQ and Ruin with the 4 nodes then take one, I still have no guarantee that the other won't be instantly taken and I'm still forced into taking a [BAD WORD] perk. We also know how the bloodweb tends to target branches you've already started on.

    Yes, it's going to be faster to collect ALL perks, but I feel like this system is going to be far more frustrating when we can see what we want and it can be taken away with less control than before.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764

    Cuz this doesn't affect new players at all, nor does it even touch the ridiculous grind it takes to get to 40, and even enough perks for this to be meaningful to a new or even a vet like me with every perk unlocked. It shaves a good chunk, but I still have to grind new characters, get others to 40+. There's still an insane grind left.

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 1,580

    I feel like all potential improvements and ideas are hamstrung by the existing structure, which isn't built to promote a reasonable and non-oppressive grind.

    Maybe teachables could be dropped to levels 15, 20, and 25? Maybe at level 40+, you ONLY get offered tier 3 perks from the web? Why couldn't we have both of those?

    I'm looking for ways to straight-up reduce the perk grind, full stop, with no catches. Behavior doesn't seem interested in entertaining that.

    There are still other types of grinds. We still need items and offerings. Some players choose to prestige. There's going to be whatever the archives and rifts are. Just let us have reasonable access to all perks on all characters for a reasonable, healthy human time commitment.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764
    edited August 2019

    I 100% agree. The grind is here to keep people playing, but the problem is it's so unhealthy for new players and even old alike that it ends up killing any will to grind or really put effort into it. What about my ideas, and we can drop teachables to 20-25-30? That way you'd unlock your perk slots, AND look forward to teachables right after. Plus you'd get access to all the perks much faster. 10 less levels per character.

    I'll be honest, I don't think they want to fix the grind. I think they want it as an artificial way to inflate playtime, but if the grind wasn't so bad people would play more, and actually have achievable goals. Mine is all killers P3, all perks. I want every character P3, all perks, but it's just not feasible to do both sides without thousands of hours.

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 1,580

    Yeah, I think they have some wild fears about player retention. But they could reduce the perk grind while still requiring some effort, and also there are other types of grinds.

    The bottom line is that at the newbie levels, even getting access to a decent selection of perks is too intimidating (which the upcoming change does not address at all). And at veteran levels, getting the specific perks you want on specific characters is totally random and unreasonable (which the upcoming change helps with...but this really should go much further).

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 1,580

    I currently have 993 hours played, according to my Steam profile. Let's cut that by 25% for time spent in queues, or forgetting that I have the game running in the background (which I do a lot). That's roughly 750 hours.

    I have 28 of 51 survivor teachables unlocked, with tier 3 of all currently accessible perks on one single main. I have 41 of 48 killer teachables unlocked, with tier 3 of all currently accessible perks on Spirit. My next-most-developed killer, Nightmare, will require another 45 webs to reach this state AFTER this change goes live. I've never prestiged any character.

    Also, I've been playing since November 2018. That's an average of about 75 hours per month, which I suspect is a pretty huge commitment for a normal person -- again, our main target audience.

    It's effing stupid that, given this, I do not have all teachables unlocked, and even if I did I would barely even have them all available for one survivor and more importantly ONE KILLER.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764
    edited August 2019

    It really should. It's going to take me 2.4mil~+ to get Steven and Nancy to level 40 as well as unlocking their teachables. Then another roughly 900k~+, possibly 1mil depending on the RNG to get my P3 Feng all the perks again. So about 3.4milBP+~ Just to catch up one character out of 19. That still need to be prestiged.

    I'm sorry, I forgot to add the new system, so 2 perks per web, so still 450k~+BP to max out Feng again. So, still roughly 3mil~+ BP just to get one character back to max. That's 3 BP caps just to catch up as a vet player. Assuming I get perfect 32,000 BP matches, no offerings that's 31+ matches just to earn the BP.

    Another way to fix this would be uncap the BP, and actually bump up BP rewards/gains all around. Have more events, anything. I stand by the Tier 1/20-25-30 teachables idea though. +A recycler of course cuz god that'd be insanely helpful for trash offerings/addons. Also, another thing I love is bringing up weak killers, BHVR's response is usually, "Just use addons." However, a lot of them aren't even that good, they sometimes don't show up, are high rarity level, and/or new players won't have them. +This grind doesn't help that, but mine would.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764

    Exactly the grind and this fix is absurd. It'll help vets with 40+ level characters, but doesn't actually address the grind at all. I'm at 1800+ hours. I've got every killer to P3, 8 maxed atm, some hovering around 10-25-40~ish. I've got Nea P2, Ash/Meg P1, and Feng P3 all perks, all teachables on both sides unlocked. That's including me playing right before Legacy ending, all the events after, and all the BP bonus events after. I'm STILL struggling to catch up/even remotely achieve my goal.

  • bgbombbgbomb Member Posts: 183


    sorry for bother you

    but i really want to know that

    do luck perk(like up the ante)increase the item rarity from chest?

    the english wiki say no

    but the chinese one say yes

    i really want to make sure of it

    thank a lot

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 1,580

    Luck has no effect on items obtained from chests. It only impacts your chance of unhooking yourself or removing a Trapper's bear trap.

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