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God Loops and Dev Priority

Ok, the long and short of this is a question : "Why do certain 'god loops' still exist, despite how apparently easy it is to fix them?" Surely the devs can take the time to fix existing content in addition to making new content.

To clarify what I mean, there are certain loops in this game that some people call "infinites" (they're not) that can waste a huge amount of a killers' time, to the point where they essentially become safe zones survivors can run to knowing any good killer will not chase them through said zone. These loops are extremely long (long enough, in some cases, to break chase and reset bloodlust) and generally unmindgameable due to their length or position, and thus the only way for a killer to deal with them is to leave survivors be if they can make it to said loops. Them being Mindgameable is a big deal, because mindgames are the main way loopable killers mitigate the amount of time waste per loop. Mindgames function both for the killer and the survivor, and are arguable the deepest expression of mechanical skill this game has at the moment - to have that taken away is to deny both sides meaningful interaction, and condemns the killer to deal with unmitigateable time waste with no way to respond. These issues are obviously more glaring against killers who have no way to mitigate these loops (Pig, Ghostface, Wraith, etc....even Hillbilly).

I know these are not "muh infinites", so don't come after me with the dumb yarn of "B-but if you do the loop perfectly for three minutes, you can get a hit on a survivor!!". That's a stupid thing to do if you're playing killer, because three minutes will lose you the game for a single hit. Period. My point is that these loops end games, and know this, can force killers to cede chases, massively reducing the amount of pressure they can exert on survivors or certain gens depending on spawns.

I also know not to chase survivors at these loops unless they really mess up. I am not arguing about strategy to mitigate these loops that convey near complete safety, I am arguing about why they still exist. There should not be designated safe areas for survivors, especially ones that have generators in or near them. The conventional strategy should never be "That part of the map is so broken that you should implicitly know not to set foot there"

Furthermore, I know that there should be a mix of weaker and stronger loops in the game. I'm not advocating for nuking all strong loops in the game (Although I'd like it if Fractured Cowshed's numerous safe loops got nuked). Killer shack is a strong loop, it's fine and it appears on almost every map. I simply think there are massive, gaping holes in DBD's map design that can be exploited in a way unbecoming of a balanced game.

Some examples of "god loops", in my opinion, include

  1. The Ironworks lower floor window loop. It's quite long, not mindgameable, and can be milked three times before the entity blocks it, assuming your chase isn't broken for some arbitrary reason while looping it, in which case a pallet often spawns in the path of the loop as well as there being adjacent jungle gym tiles.
  2. Wretched Shop can spawn with two open windows facing each other, creating a loop that may as well be infinite, as it goes from two fast vaulting windows around the back of the shop with sometimes multiple pallets along the way or in reach. This thing may as well be infinite and there is nothing a killer can do to mitigate this on their own.
  3. Torment Creek has the same issue as Wretched Shop that turns the back third of the map into an absolute safe zone, even if only one window spawns on it
  4. Mother's House has some ridiculous window placements that can occur in the central building that only exacerbate the map's existing problems (Size, lack of cover around the central building, etc).
  5. Wretched Abbatoir's window spawn can range from strong to outright broken at times. Many God Window spawns.
  6. Lery's double window near the strong Library loop. This one can be mindgamed if the survivor is bad, but in my experience, good survivors abuse this to the point where I don't even check anymore.
  7. Remove Haddonfield please.
  8. There are definitely more that I see when I play, but these are the ones that I always look to exploit as a survivor and dread to see as a killer. Remind me of some more.

Keep in mind, these loops often can work in combination with spawned pallets and jungle gym structures that can further boost their strength.

My question, I guess to the developers is this : These loops seem quite easy to fix on their own. These loops are well known. Why have they not been addressed?

The devs have time to re-work Freddy Krueger and cook up a whole new map, killer, and two survivors for Stranger things, but they don't have time to tinker with the main buildings of a few maps? Am I really to believe that moving the Ironworks window over or stopping the Wretched Shop from spawning to adjacent windows is too much work for the developers when they have been extraordinarily productive in other areas? These problems are well known, and unlike other issues, the solutions seem relatively clear - why then, have they been left for so long?

The answer I expect is a bit disheartening. I assume they are going to leave these areas broken until some time in the long-awaited future where they finally "re-work" all the maps they have created, as they have done to Badham (which I have mixed feelings on, by the way). If this is the case, I fear that we will have to deal with (or enjoy) having areas of almost guaranteed safety in this game simply because the devs cannot bother to make minor tweaks to maps, instead promising "comprehensive reworks" to maps that perhaps will never come.

TL;DR : If the devs can pump out new killers and content consistently, why haven't they made minor mapping changes that could fix problems that have been known to exist for years?

With everyone talking about big, core issues, I think it'd be easier to ask for a change that is more easily fulfilled.

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Comments

  • savevatznicksavevatznick Member Posts: 176

    It's not laziness. Maybe it's because they're prioritizing monetizeable content over renovating new maps, for obvious reasons, but I wouldn't demean them with an accusation of laziness.

  • marching_hyenamarching_hyena Member Posts: 21

    They aren't removing these because removing some of them would be taking away balance.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,282

    If people stop playing survivor just because they can't use those incredibly safe loops the entire match, then I don't know what to say anymore. Pallet loops that are safe are fone, as long as there aren't many of them, simply because once the pallet is down killers can destroy pallets. However, killers can not do anything against safe window loops except for running around those loops until the entity blocks of the vaults. Something like that shouldn't exist.

  • Mak0Mak0 Member Posts: 29

    Haddonfield needs the same treatment Badham got.

  • savevatznicksavevatznick Member Posts: 176

    I highly doubt replacing god loops with manageable loops would destroy "balance" for any besides people who rely on these loops heavily.

  • ScytereScytere Member Posts: 19

    Give Haddonfield 5 map combos.

  • DBDbuildsYTDBDbuildsYT Member Posts: 779

    Because the devs have clearly shown that balance must be survivors side, and removing this tiles by adding a damn door would create a thunderstorm.

    At the same time the priority is money, thus map redesign is not a priority.

    That's also the reason why it's taking so long to fix them, the illusion if doing something but practically not enough to upset survivors

  • LmronbyLmronby Member Posts: 23

    I'll take 1,000 less Survivor players over 1,000 less Killer players

  • TheBeanTheBean Member Posts: 1,984

    Clicky-Click-Barbar-ra-Trick

    Waves the magic wand.... FIXED!



    Can't always get that 4K... sometimes you gotta work for it... or settle for the 3K.

  • TarveshTarvesh Member Posts: 404


    "balance"


    This word you say. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • KazrotKazrot Member Posts: 3

    Killers need someone to kill.

    This is a game that people choose to play. Give them a reason to quit and then how will you satisfy that bloodlust?

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 568

    Take away bloodlust while they are at it too.

  • vampire_toothyvampire_toothy Member Posts: 316


    This would be a bad reason to allow certain structures such as the disturbed ward, wretched shop and fractured cowshed to remain the way they are. If anything, these loops allow two particular mechanics that exist which punishes players who play the actually balanced tiles and encourages them to just run to the super safe structures instead.

    I don't believe that many survivors would actually quit because all fixing these structures would do is just make it so people can't hug the buildings with balanced landing and would actually need to rely on being good at mindgames in order to survive, which fixing these structures would also likely come with the removal (or a nerf) of bloodlust and possibly the entity blocker as they wouldn't be necessary anymore.

  • rayoxiumrayoxium Member Posts: 79

    Fixing those loops will have to be addressed at some point, but those entire maps are made of the generic jungle gym tiles. If they’re gonna rework them they will probably have to do a bunch of balancing work to create better loops like Badham.

    In all honesty I wish they would do a quick replacement of those windows with an extremely safe pallet, so it’s a once time use deal. That way killers don’t have to deal with the frustration of it while they come up with a better solution

  • xnes_galaxxnes_galax Member Posts: 136

    While i agree with this, i also want to point out that there are some extremely unsafe if not completely "dead" zones in the maps. An example can be basically the entire shelterwoods or rottenfield, all the external zones of the Swamp and some huge areas in macmillan maps.

    Just removing these big safe zones would make bigger problem especially for these maps, where the only real safe zone is the main building with a lot of unsafe zones around.

    Also, is not really that easy to fix loops like ironwork's. Adding a door near the window will make it extremely unsafe, but placing it too far away will still allow to take the right turn and keep looping.

  • marching_hyenamarching_hyena Member Posts: 21

    Sorry, I was under the assumption that you just wanted these loops removed entirely rather than kept but made slightly less awful. In that case I agree with you, they need to be kept, but definitely reworked.

  • marching_hyenamarching_hyena Member Posts: 21

    I know it's a little inconceivable but I actually do understand what balance means! Removing loops entirely from the game would just make it easier for killers to achieve victory and harder for survivors to escape, thus removing the small balance that loops add to the game.

  • savevatznicksavevatznick Member Posts: 176

    Yes, this is what I am saying. Obviously the devs can promise us Badham tier reworks, but in the mean time even a band-aid fix like changing the window to a pallet could help mildly alleviate the issues these god loops cause.

  • terumisanterumisan Member Posts: 158

    You forgot the super loop at coal tower

  • SnakeSound222SnakeSound222 Member Posts: 1,566

    I think the devs are slowly starting to fix these with the map and loop reworks. Hopefully Haddonfield will be the next reworked map and that the devs ignore the crybabies who want every map to be full of safe loops.

  • Maelstrom10Maelstrom10 Member Posts: 1,154

    I don't disagree that some of these loops need adjusting. however i also feel that a lot of them are just RNG based and not map problems per say (except haddonfield that just needs some badham treatment.) Personally don't feel that some of these should be outright "removed" but simply adjusted. like as an example, the wretched shop could just have only one of those windows spawn at a time, i've seen two pallets spawn in there, one of which is really unsafe, but the window loops make the other pallet (if it spawns and rng is on your side) really strong. simply making a lock that, if one window is open, the other can't be even if the map has open positions.

  • MochanMochan Member Posts: 1,170

    Ormond is also pretty to infinite with Balanced Landing.

    I personally think BHVR should do a 180 and change the direction they're taking the game.

    Right now, we're moving towards:

    * Stealthier killers

    * Less stealthy survivors

    * Anti Camping perks for Survivors

    * Gen Progress-slowing perks for survivors

    * Gen Defense Perks and Strategies for Killers

    * Looping Strategies still the primary means of survival for Survivors

    I'd rather see them nerf loops and then compensate by giving some stealth and juking ability back to survivors, then give more ways for killres to delay the game.

    Just my two cents.

  • MochanMochan Member Posts: 1,170


    In my opinion, unsafe zones won't be a problem if Survivors has more ways to survive than just looping.

    Get rid of the problem loops, leave existing safe zones as is, then give more options for survivors to survive even in unsafe zones. And I don't mean adding more palettes. I mean letting jukes and stealth work again.

  • KasakiKasaki Member Posts: 31

    That's why they made bamboozle and also the new demogorg perk , there are counters people just don't want to use them

  • BigFudgeBigFudge Member Posts: 121

    Crotus Prenn, middle building is always a nightmare

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