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Moris and Keys need to be changed.

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Comments

  • DerpDerp Member Posts: 157

    I already thought of this scenario and I still think it's fine. Most of the time, it's better if you just got the last gen done instead of searching for the hatch, since it could take too long. If you already found it, you have to search for the others and have them follow you, but sometimes, they'll just run the other way without looking back, not knowing you got a key. The only time you should open the hatch with the others is when you get 3 genned, the hatch location is known, or it's just you and 1 other survivor left, but even then, you and the other person can get caught easily since both of you are running all over the place trying to find it.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,998
    edited September 2019

    I disagree, for the most part. Obviously, if the fourth gen pops and you've got the last gen close to finished, you are better off just popping that sucker and going from there. But if you have the Key, the fourth gen clears, and you have no way of really knowing at that moment what the progress of the other gens are (assuming in both scenarios that the Hatch has spawned), your best bet is to just go for the alternate finish line right there. At that point, you are able to play much more stealthily because you aren't forcing yourself to sit on a Gen that the Killer always knows the location of, and once you do find the Hatch, all you really need to do is find one other person and make it back. And that's assuming you're playing solo. If you are in SWF comms with even one person, it's just a matter of one of the two people going "K, I found the Hatch; meet at X location." Meanwhile, if the Killer suspects that someone has the Key and is going for a Hatch play, not only do they need to be conscious of that, but they still need to be conscious of the Gens in the event that their hunch is wrong.

    I don't really factor teammate incompetency into this. If they see that you have a key and that you are motioning for them to follow you, it's on them to put two and two together. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out why someone holding the key wants you to follow them if the Hatch has spawned.

  • DerpDerp Member Posts: 157

    I'm talking about solo que here. Keys just aren't that good in solo que since you have no communication and not that much information on whats going on. Swf with voice chat gives you communication and information so that makes keys a bit op for them. Searching for the hatch when there's only 1 gen left is situational really. If a survivor is chasing the killer for a while, then it's better to just get the last gen done. If not, then looking for it is better, but you can still get punished if you take too long or you just can't find it. You need to decide which is the right play, depending on the situation.

    I didn't really factor teammate incompetency into this. All I said is that sometimes, a survivor doesn't know you're near them with a key so they don't turn around and keep running the other direction, which I don't blame since like i mentioned earlier, lack of information and communication. Plus, they can be focused on whats in front of them for good reasons like going for the save, watching the killer's movements, etc. Seeing a survivor bringing a key in a match is very difficult since it's so small and blends into the environment. Sometimes, I just do something else while the game is about to start so I have no knowledge of a key being in the match.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,998

    And I am largely talking about solo queue as well. For skilled Survivors, it is possible for them to check places where the Hatch is expected to spawn (since, like most other things, they spawn in specific locations and aren't just anywhere on the map at complete random). Just my opinion, but I think you overestimate how difficult finding the Hatch is. It's not as simple as finding the Hatch in one-two-three, but you can find it without too much fuss if you understand where to look.

    Sure, a Survivor might be occupied with something else and not see you at first, but you should be able to get their attention pretty quickly if you start following them. You don't need to see them bring the Key into the Match at the start for you to be aware (perhaps they got lucky and found it in a Chest). You can just see them come up to you at some point holding the Key and then go from there. Someone being pre-occupied with a hook save is a different story, but that isn't really the sort of scenario I'm talking about.

  • Mister_HoldoutMister_Holdout Member Posts: 2,499

    If the player base was bigger, I would suggest creating a separate mode for casual play.

  • DerpDerp Member Posts: 157

    Okay, then I'm not sure why you brought up swf in the first place. Yes, it does spawn in specific locations but its still random on where it spawns so it still takes a while to search for it. Plus, knowing every single hatch spawn for every map is still difficult to memorize for players with hundreds or even thousands of hours into the game.

    It takes a while for you to catch up to them depending on the situation. I mean, I know you can drop it in front of them to let them know you have it, but even then, you still need to hope that that survivor doesn't die early. Overall, they're just too situational and won't work most of the time, which is why I still don't think they're that good.

  • kcwolf1975kcwolf1975 Member Posts: 615

    No need to change them, just make them less common in the bloodwebs. I see way too many of those and not enough bloody party streamers.

  • Spooky13Spooky13 Member Posts: 1,393

    The Mori offerings need to be changed, except for Cypress. Things like Myer's Tombstone and Devour Hope are fine because you at least have to work for those Moris, and the game will have lasted a while by then. Same for Keys, except the Broken Key.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,998

    I brought up SWF to signal that what I was describing was the worst-case scenario and that it can only get better from there. And solid Survivors have things like the totem spawns and Hatch spawns memorized pretty well.

    Firstly, if it takes you that long to get a Survivor's attention and they're not, like, trying to make a Hook save, then either you or they are doing something wrong. I would probably chalk that up to incompetence. And idk why you need to hope they don't die early once you are leading them to the Hatch. It does not take that long to lead one person to the Hatch. I really don't think they're nearly as situational as you make it.

  • MsFrizby93MsFrizby93 Member Posts: 77

    How about instead of asking for gameplay changes just git gud or git lost, not every game has to be tailored to your perfection.


    and anyone that uses ‘balance’ as a excuse are just kidding themselves, there will never be true ‘gameplay balance’ in a 4v1 match that only lasts 12 minutes with unique perks/items and unique killer powers with certain addons.

    quit crying and adjust your gameplay style or realize that DBD isn’t aimed for your hello kitty adventure island free handouts.


    mori’s and keys make the gameplay unique and interesting, and besides if a killer is blowing through a ebony within 7 minutes of the match they aren’t going to get many points and will only safety pip.


    does anyone actually use their brain or just automatically cry OP when you happen to have a few games where this is being pulled off.


    and yea don’t get effing hooked, it’s possible to mindgame through a whole match with SWF or solo, don’t cry for nerfs or ‘balance’ because you flat out got wrecked up the booty hole. I know it’s so hard looping a killer through 10 minutes /eye roll


    the only thing I have a issue with keys is being able to reopen if the killer closes but even then i adjust my play style to either focus the key players or not. If you focus the key players they are no longer a issue until the next potato picks it up off the corpse.

  • JagoJago Member Posts: 645

    Yes.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,998

    "How about instead of asking for gameplay changes just git gud or git lost, not every game has to be tailored to your perfection."

    Nah, that's just ignoring the problem.

  • RaidokuRaidoku Member Posts: 69

    My friend there is a rather easy way to deal with moris whenever the offering screen pops up and I see killer using secret offerings im checking my NAT type even if I find out it wasn't a mori I love wasting killers secrets offerings usually 95% of the time its mori they need to change how it works two hooks and then mori is fine one hook and then a tunneling killer is stupid so I have a perfect solution until its fixed. 

  • IhatelifeIhatelife Member Posts: 4,764

    I agreed + insta heals.

  • DerpDerp Member Posts: 157

    I'm not sure what you mean for the swf but whatever. I know I already said this earlier, but memorizing all of that is still pretty difficult. Plus, it still spawns at a random location therefore it still takes a while to find it, even if you know where all the locations are.

    I wouldn't really call that incompetence since there can be many reasons why they're focused on what's ahead of them without knowing I'm behind them. Plus, If I had Bond or Empathy, there's no way they'd be able to see me from a distance.

    I was talking about the early game or before the hatch spawns. You do this when you find the key from a chest or to remind them that you have it since it's easy to forget that they brought it in due to how small and dark it is. The main issue with keys is that it only works towards the end of the game where you're most likely to die before even using it. The aura addons are pretty garbage due to the channeling so I wouldn't count those. I don't know about you but I think they really need a buff for solo que players since they only work effectively with good information, which solo que players lack.

  • RivynRivyn Member Posts: 2,212

    I'd remove ebony mori. Or, if it was to be changed, maybe allow two kills. And the universal change would be after second hook.

    As for keys, I'm a firm believer in that keys should only allow the holder to escape. After it's used, the hatch is closed again.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,998

    "I'm not sure what you mean for the swf but whatever. I know I already said this earlier, but memorizing all of that is still pretty difficult. Plus, it still spawns at a random location therefore it still takes a while to find it, even if you know where all the locations are."

    I mean that it is good as solo and even better as SWF. And I'm just gonna have to disagree with you on the Hatch taking a long time to find.

    "I wouldn't really call that incompetence since there can be many reasons why they're focused on what's ahead of them without knowing I'm behind them. Plus, If I had Bond or Empathy, there's no way they'd be able to see me from a distance."

    Unless you're trying to get their attention from waaaaaaaaaay out, I can't imagine a good reason why it would take more than a couple of seconds to get their attention.

    "I was talking about the early game or before the hatch spawns."

    Why? As long as the Hatch isn't in play yet, there's no reason to distract someone from doing gens so they can look at your key.

    "The main issue with keys is that it only works towards the end of the game where you're most likely to die before even using it. The aura addons are pretty garbage due to the channeling so I wouldn't count those"

    That's not an issue. That's just how the items works. If you think you're "most likely to die before using it," that says more about the player level than about the item itself.

    "I don't know about you but I think they really need a buff for solo que players since they only work effectively with good information, which solo que players lack."

    I don't disagree with that, but keys being problematic doesn't really factor into that discussion.

  • DerpDerp Member Posts: 157

    I was specifically talking about solo que here so bringing up swf was just unnecessary. If you think it's easy to find the hatch, then that's great, but I'm talking about the majority of players here. There are 32 maps and all of them have spawns that are different from one another. I know some will spawn at the same location like Badham with the boiler rooms but you get the idea.

    I'm talking about situations where it can be a pain to get a survivor to follow you. I mean, yeah, if you can get near a survivor and let them know you got a key, then it's fine, but that doesn't happen all the time since they don't know where you are most of the time so they end up running the other way. Plus, not knowing you have a key means they're not going to bother searching for you. I've already stated the reasons as to why keys are hard to identify so I'll move on.

    I agree that you can just drop it in front of them while working on a gen together, but there are times where it's better to just work on a gen by yourself instead of searching for another survivor.

    Even if you show them the key, they need to stay alive in the late game for them to escape with you, which is what makes it so situational. It isn't an issue, but it's part of the reason why I think it isn't as good as you think it is, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Dying before the hatch spawns isn't due to incompetence since it depends on the situation (mindgames, tunneling, camping, strategy, type of killer, perk build, etc).

    In an earlier post, you said, "I'm down for rebalancing both Keys and Moris. "Giving either side the ability to end the game early just does not sit right with me." You then replied to my post by saying, "The problem is with being able to open it prematurely and escape with 2-3 people. It is not as difficult as you make it out to be to find the Hatch before it's open, find someone, have them follow you to the Hatch, and then make the escape." Bringing up the fact that keys aren't that good and needs a buff for solo que was the whole point of this argument but now I'm not sure what we're arguing about since you're just contradicting yourself.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,998
    edited September 2019

    "I was specifically talking about solo que here so bringing up swf was just unnecessary. If you think it's easy to find the hatch, then that's great, but I'm talking about the majority of players here. There are 32 maps and all of them have spawns that are different from one another. I know some will spawn at the same location like Badham with the boiler rooms but you get the idea."

    The better Survivors are able to find the Hatch pretty reliably. Not every time, but certainly more than you are making it out to be. Not even "best of the best." Just "better."

    "I'm talking about situations where it can be a pain to get a survivor to follow you. I mean, yeah, if you can get near a survivor and let them know you got a key, then it's fine, but that doesn't happen all the time since they don't know where you are most of the time so they end up running the other way. Plus, not knowing you have a key means they're not going to bother searching for you. I've already stated the reasons as to why keys are hard to identify so I'll move on."

    I'm not saying it happens all the time, but meeting up with a Survivor by chance is not some rare occurrence that you can't rely on if you are trying to escape with the Key. If you want to find someone, you will eventually do it.

    "I agree that you can just drop it in front of them while working on a gen together, but there are times where it's better to just work on a gen by yourself instead of searching for another survivor."

    Why wouldn't you do a gen instead of searching for someone if you have the means to? I'm talking about something you do in between doing your objectives, not something you go way out of your way for at the expense of your objective.

    "Even if you show them the key, they need to stay alive in the late game for them to escape with you, which is what makes it so situational. It isn't an issue, but it's part of the reason why I think it isn't as good as you think it is, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Dying before the hatch spawns isn't due to incompetence since it depends on the situation (mindgames, tunneling, camping, strategy, type of killer, perk build, etc)."

    Considering that someone needs to die before the Hatch spawns early, that's not exactly a bad thing for you. Dying before the Hatch spawns isn't inherently incompetence, but someone believing that the Key isn't worth using because they find that they are more often than not unable to stay alive long enough to use it is a pretty strong sign that they may not be that great of a Survivor.

    "In an earlier post, you said, "I'm down for rebalancing both Keys and Moris. "Giving either side the ability to end the game early just does not sit right with me." You then replied to my post by saying, "The problem is with being able to open it prematurely and escape with 2-3 people. It is not as difficult as you make it out to be to find the Hatch before it's open, find someone, have them follow you to the Hatch, and then make the escape." Bringing up the fact that keys aren't that good and needs a buff for solo que was the whole point of this argument but now I'm not sure what we're arguing about since you're just contradicting yourself."

    If you are suggesting we buff Keys for the sake of solo play, you are never going to get me to agree with you.

  • NenkieNenkie Member Posts: 43

    Ebony mori, insta heals and hatch keys should be removed to make the game more fair and balanced.

  • DerpDerp Member Posts: 157

    The better survivors aren't the majority, which is what I'm talking about. Even if they know where all the hatch spawns are, it's still based on rng so they have to run all over the map to find it. It can take a while or it can take a short amount of time, but in the end, it's still inconsistent.

    Finding someone without any aura perks/addons will take ages and you know that. Even if you found another survivor, they can get chased by the killer or become preoccupied with other objectives. You don't get many situations where its possible or better to open the hatch than doing the last 1 or 2 remaining gens, which is what I've been trying to say. It's too situational and you seem to be agreeing with me since you're saying it doesn't happen all the time.

    Once again, I mentioned this because it's situational. You won't always get a chance to show a survivor you got a key since everyone is doing their own thing.

    My point was that even if survivors knew you had a key, it wouldn't matter that they have that knowledge since it won't work on them anymore. Also, some survivors won't remember or know you have it most of the time so you have to remind them, which is why I said that if they die, then letting them know you have a key was just pointless. If a survivor doesn't like bringing one in game because it doesn't work often, then that means it's too situational, not because they're incompetent. Any other item in the game works throughout the match even without addons but keys only work towards the end, when all the gens are done or when survivors get killed with most of the gens done. If you add the fact that the hatch spawns randomly, the way keys work is mostly based on rng.

    Okay, so now you're contradicting yourself again. I said keys need a buff because it isn't that good for solo que players and then you said you don't disagree with me, but now you're saying I can't convince you that keys need a buff.

    This honestly feels like a pissing contest at this point since you're just making me repeat myself over and over again so if you don't have anything new to say, I'm not responding any further.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,998

    "The better survivors aren't the majority, which is what I'm talking about. Even if they know where all the hatch spawns are, it's still based on rng so they have to run all over the map to find it. It can take a while or it can take a short amount of time, but in the end, it's still inconsistent."

    One, we ought to be balancing the game around high-level play, so I'm not concerned with the lower-level players in this case. Two, I'm not convinced that finding the Hatch takes as long as you seem to imply, even if you get the raw end of RNG.

    "Finding someone without any aura perks/addons will take ages and you know that. Even if you found another survivor, they can get chased by the killer or become preoccupied with other objectives. You don't get many situations where its possible or better to open the hatch than doing the last 1 or 2 remaining gens, which is what I've been trying to say. It's too situational and you seem to be agreeing with me since you're saying it doesn't happen all the time.

    Once again, I mentioned this because it's situational. You won't always get a chance to show a survivor you got a key since everyone is doing their own thing."

    I don't agree with your assessment. Also, me saying "it doesn't happen all the time" is not me agreeing that it is too situational.

    "My point was that even if survivors knew you had a key, it wouldn't matter that they have that knowledge since it won't work on them anymore. Also, some survivors won't remember or know you have it most of the time so you have to remind them, which is why I said that if they die, then letting them know you have a key was just pointless. If a survivor doesn't like bringing one in game because it doesn't work often, then that means it's too situational, not because they're incompetent. Any other item in the game works throughout the match even without addons but keys only work towards the end, when all the gens are done or when survivors get killed with most of the gens done. If you add the fact that the hatch spawns randomly, the way keys work is mostly based on rng."

    If the person you were hoping to hop into the Hatch with dies before the Hatch is there, you just find someone else. This isn't as hard as you are making it out to be. Also, what you're describing is starting to get into the whole "incompetency" thing. And yes, I would very much argue that it is a sign of lack of skill. That's like saying "I don't like bringing in Adrenaline because it's too inconsistent."

    "Okay, so now you're contradicting yourself again. I said keys need a buff because it isn't that good for solo que players and then you said you don't disagree with me, but now you're saying I can't convince you that keys need a buff."

    NOOOOOOOnonononono. I thought you said that in general solo play needs some sort of buff. That I can get on board with. I did not realize at the time that you meant that we should buff keys. I am 100% against the idea of buffing Keys.

  • DerpDerp Member Posts: 157

    It's best if the game was balanced around low level and high level play, otherwise you'll have players quitting in the lower ranks due to how unbalanced the game is.

    Okay, then lets just end the discussion here. No matter what I say, you'll still disagree with me, even though my points are valid. I mean, I don't know what else to say since you're not explaining why you still disagree with me. Also, saying it doesn't happen all the time still implies that its situational.

    I now understand that you got confused with what I was trying to say but like I said, the only reason keys are good in swf and bad in solo que is because of the disparity in information the two modes give to survivors, which is why I think it needs a buff.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,998


    The game should still be enjoyable in low play, but that does not necessarily mean that it should be balanced around it. Many games strive to be balanced around high-level play, and they are more than able to do so without compromising low-level play.

    I disagree with you because I think it is very possible to find the Hatch in a reasonable time, I think it is very possible to find one or more people to take with you once the Hatch has spawned, and I don't think being in solo play prevents that.

    Furthermore, I disagree that keys are bad in solo queue. They don't need to be buffed IMO.

  • MochanMochan Member Posts: 2,886

    Both key and Pink Mori are bad for this game, and I say this as a guy who abused Plunderer to hunt keys down when EGC hit.

    Key not as bad, and certainly not as prolific, but both are bad for the game and the Ebony Mori in particular is really frustrating for survivors to go against.

    Mori's equivalent is the key.

    Insta-heal's equivalent is insta-down. You take out Instaheals, you should also take out Insta-downs. I think most killers will object to that.

  • MochanMochan Member Posts: 2,886

    You are the reason Moris are bad for the game.

    Ebony Moris are bad because they are so frustrating to go against that many survivors just suicide or DC when they see it.

    And that is BAD for the game no matter how anyone spins it.

    Keys are not as bad because #1 they are harder to use anyway and #2 killers can counter it in the lobby using Franklin's, or just by tunneling the key holder.

    Meanwhile the only "counter" for Ebony Mori is to DC or suicide. "Playing perfectly" is not a valid counter, sorry.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 4,570

    @Mochan That's wrong. Pink insta-heals are the equivalent to moris, not the key:

    Usually, a killer needs to down a survivor 3x to kill him. (I'm not counting flashlight saves etc.) With a mori, a killer needs to down a survivor only 2x to kill him. With a pink insta-heal and without a mori, a killer needs to down a survivor 4x to kill him. With the insta-heal and the mori, the killer needs to down 3x.

    Also, insta-down attacks take skill. Using an insta-heal is completely skill-free. I suggest you start playing killer on a regular basis. It would really broaden your horizon and change your view on things.

  • FuelSauceFuelSauce Member Posts: 125

    Just gonna say that anyone who thinks these are fine is a dumba*s.

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