Saying Legion isn't viable isn't technically incorrect, but some, including me, can make it work in red ranks. Dismissing that isn't really productive. You both are technically right, he's viable, but not because of his kit.
I don't think he needs a full rework except of the Deep Wound effect. They keep trying to balance it around that, when it should be balanced around the running and stabbing. That's why most people play Legion. If the Deep wound part was scrapped or changed completely, then the devs might have some more freedom with the balancing of him.
Other than that we agree.
Well, I mean he isn't locked into a forward movement, he is able to steer slightly to the left and right, which can be increased tremendously with add-ons.
I know that, but my point was that his movement is locked pretty hard. Legion has no problem moving in any direction he so chooses and cannot bump into anything unless he just walks directly into it.
Only cause Legion can't use his power for mobility? Otherwise they have double the fatigue timer.
Double the fatigue timer? It's only double if she blinks once. If she blinks twice it's 1.5 more seconds, but think about it. How many times does Nurse blink in a chase? Far more than once or twice. How many times does she blink to traverse the map? Far more than twice.
Legion got an extra 1 second of fatigue when they got reworked, that alone counterbalances the +5% base movement speed when it comes to catching up.
After doing some math, it looks like Legion is pretty much the same speed now as they were before, with some times new Legion being faster, depending on when each could use FF. If for example they've been moving the same length of time and they are able to use FF the same amount of times, new Legion is faster. If not however old Legion is. Either way, they are definitely not slower, and it looks like they're pretty much the exact same speed in most occasions. However, new Legion having a higher base movement speed is honestly better in the long run for them than their power being faster imo, but it looks like the devs balanced their speed to be around the same overall if they were using FF every time it was up the second it was up. However I don't see Legion's doing that, so I expect that new Legion is still faster. Either way, it still holds true that new Legion's base movement speed plus old Legion's FF would likely be much too powerful.
I mean how often does that make a difference when it comes to traversing the map? Maybe on something like Lery's but otherwise you don't have to do extreme parkour to get from point A to point B.
I mean, it can be pretty hard to navigate with teleports and Billy's chainsaw because of all the little things sprinkled in-between the map. Sure there aren't as many windows as Lery's, but overall, you can bump into objects quite easily on pretty much any map with all the rubble in-between them as Billy, and Nurse has some objects she just cannot teleport through.
Also, additionally, none of those three killers suffer a power penalty for basic actions such as: getting stunned or for just hitting a survivor with a basic attack. Imagine if like Billy couldn't charge his chainsaw for +10 seconds after M1ing a survivor.
Oh? Nurse doesn't get an even longer stun for swinging? Her stun is essentially a cooldown on her power. I mean Billy doesn't really, but his penalty is more so from hitting objects. Spirit is the only one of the three I can think of not punished for anything really.
That's not what I was trying to say, even if I worded it awkwardly.
Then what were you trying to say? If the splitting up against the Legion is counterplay to his power, then that's his counterplay. Other characters have counterplay as well. Counterplay is not something Legion specific, and you have ways of forcing survivors to need to be closer together, through gen manipulation.
I suppose that's true.
From the way I see it, Legion's power is meant to be an information tool to Legion, and a hindrance to survivors. Legion gets to use his FF to hit a survivor, extend his power, and see other survivors within his TR. This allows him to injure one, and down another, or injure two, and down the third, or even injure 3, and down the fourth. It's a stall tactic, although one that's probably not as good as it should be through no fault of Legion's design, but moreso the fault of people who complained about healing, getting it nerfed, and causing survivors to ignore healing in favor of Adrenaline.
I know he can change his direction slightly, the point wasn't really about that though. It's just a nitpick with my wording. My point was that they're entirely different and Legion can choose when and where they want to go whereas the others cannot quite do so, or have more difficulties doing so.
All the killers being compared to Legion (Nurse, Spirit, Billy) have LETHAL powers along with the fatigue/recharge/drawbacks.
We were talking about map traversal, but tell me, how are Spirit and Nurse's powers lethal when they're literally for movement/tracking and have no lethality to them whatsoever? Never understood that argument.
Why does that have to be explained @Atrushan88? Nurse, Spirit, Billy and so on can use their power to down a survivor. Whether directly with the power (Billy) or indirectly (Nurse and Spirit). By indirectly I mean the power itself does not down survivors but it gives an advantage that can lead to a down.
Legion is not able to directly or indirectly use their power to down someone (beyond tracking which every killer has in sone form). Killer instinct (Legion's tracking via Ferel Frenzy) reveals the locations of those within their terror radius, which is nice. Though, during frenzy, most basic tracking tools are wiped(scratches, blood, blurry vision etc) to compensate for killer instinct. This can make it difficult to track a survivor if you cancel your power near them for the down (then eating the damn stun) as you have no scratches or blood to track with once frenzy ends.
If you are able to reach one of them via frenzy you have to make a choice. Cancel frenzy then eat an awful 4 second stun, hit them giving them borrowed time if they didn't already, or eat the stun if you hit someone who has borrowed time. None of these outcomes result in a down.
Using different wording: At best, you can cancel the power near an injured survivor rather than hitting them which gives them a speed burst (they still get a 4 second head start and scratches plus blood were wiped during frenzy) for the down. Hit someone, injuring them, giving them borrowed time, as well as a speed boost. Or, at worst, hit someone who has borrowed time which stuns you for 4 seconds and gives the survivor a speed boost.
In short, Legion can injure but is never able to down someone with his power (franks is negligible with how terrible it is).
In regards to map traversal, Legion only moves 10% faster during frenzy (two play with your food tokens). Yes it lasts longer but not so much so that it grants much of an advantage, if any, to getting around quicker. Like what has been stated in this thread already. Oftentimes, it's better to walk rather than use frenzy to travel.
Frenzy is not fast enough or long enough (without add ons) to effectively be used for travel. Plus, you're stunned for 4 seconds as well as needing to wait out the cool down before using it again. On top of all that, scratches and blood are erased while using frenzy which further diminishes the value of whatever distance you were able to travel. This allows survivors to hide/escape much easier from a Legion who uses frenzy for traveling.
As I stated before, Legion is meant to use his power to spread his damage and stall survivors, not down them, and his power, when chained, lasts longer, so I disagree with the sentiment that it can't be used for travel, as any time you hit a survivor with it, you ARE using it to travel. As for losing sight of scratch marks, last I checked, 4 seconds is not long enough for scratch marks disappear, last I checked, they last for 10 seconds(around 7 with lightweight). Oh and Legion when using his power every chance he gets is not slower than old Legion, as I stated(with math). This means overall Legion is faster. As for his power being non lethal, sure, it can't down them itself, but you can take 4 health states faster than most other killers, assuming they're in close enough proximity to each other. That's arguably more beneficial than any single down, assuming survivors heal.
I love Legion though I've been salty about how they were handled so I don't play them as much. If something was changed since their nerf I might not have caught it. From what I remember, the marks and blood disappear completely during frenzy. When it ends they don't show up again until the survivor starts running and makes new scratches. Or was this changed?
After rereading our comments I understand the miscommunication. I was talking about getting to survivors and it's effectiveness in helping with downs rather just moving around the map.
I was answering this: "how are Spirit and Nurse's powers lethal when they're literally for movement/tracking and have no lethality to them whatsoever?"
I explained this then compared it to Legion's. As for where lethality came into the conversation: Legion gets stunned AND has a cooldown despite their power being non-lethal (directly or indirectly) which seems overkill compared to other killers whos power can be lethal (lethality explained in above comments). He can get around and stall (depends on build) but can't do much else. Running around and stalling can be great but a large part of the objective is to actually get downs and hooks which his power can actually hinder.
In regard to Legion's stalling potential, who likes mending simulator? It might be effective but it sucks for the survivors. I say that even though I use thana and sloppy with the cooldown and blade addons.
As on apology for the miscommunication here is a picture of my cat @Atrushan88 :
You're welcome =P
They were buffed rather than nerfed? Hell, if that's what you call a buff, then God help us. Legion is so unplayable right now its not even remotely funny. I wanna play em' so bad, but it's just so far from reality to even consider at the moment.
They need to pay urgent attention and rework Legion quick smart. Otherwise we just aren't gonna use em anymore...
At some point Legion will be out of their power during a chase. I would assume this is when you actually start becoming lethal. While you have multiple people injured, you have one who will be downed. I feel like it's a good tradeoff as you're taking away more health states in one chase than you would normally under most circumstances. As for the negatives to Legion's power, with certain addons/perks you can see every survivor on the map, basically knowing what they're doing. It can be a map-wide BBQ without requiring a down. I would treat Legion as an information based killer, with stall potential, rather than a killer who is meant to down people with their power. While this may not be what's fun to people, I feel like this is what they were going for with Legion. Mending isn't really fun as a survivor, no, but Legion needs something other than "increased speed". I don't feel like removing Deep Wounds while keeping Legion's increased speed would be fair to survivors, if Legion was allowed to keep it after hitting someone, because then they would just be able to chase someone and down them super quick, while even vaulting pallets(and breaking while vaulting with button). Killers are already much faster than survivors, and then you factor in bloodlust, I don't think we need a killer who can chase someone and down them that quickly. Also keep in mind Legion when in FF does not need to wipe his blade, unlike other killers. It would just be too strong.
The only way I would suggest keeping Legion's current base speed, and reverting his FF speed(which is what most people want and do not think would be overpowered), would be again, if he was forced to stay in his power until it ended, rather than be able to end it on his own/missing attacks. This at the very least would force him to search for other targets after hitting the one, or wait out a 10 second timer and then a 4 second stun if he wants to completely ignore it after the first hit and continue chasing the one survivor. 4.6 base MS with 5.28 FF speed would be just too much to be able to use it, then cancel your power once you were right on their ass, and then catch up to them almost instantly afterwards.
Overall though, my argument was never about his lethality, him being OP, or anything. My argument was simply that overall, Legion's movement speed is the same or better(in most cases better, only the same/VERY SLIGHTLY better if Legion was using their power every second it was up). Legion only FEELS slower, because the gap between their base movement speed and FF movement speed was lessened, in addition to their FF movement speed being lowered. It makes you feel slower, when you're really not.
I could try to come up with ways where Legion could just not have DW and be fast, but I don't think it would be balanced in any form. Legion needs some form of limiter if they're going to move fast. 5.0 movement speed is already 125% movement speed. That's way too strong for not having some limit. Wraith has to be in a non combative state for that kind of move speed.
Oh and cute kitty.
Sry for nitpicking. I'm feeling on one site bad for this, but standing for months on the Legion site and fighting exaggerations from some people turns you into a guy who do this, I guess.
Btw. a pure dmg effect, instead of dw today how from me descipet would possible. It just would need balance and a possible hotfix after a few weeks to adjust it maybe.
The named 10% from me were just a example. I don't think that would be a good number... At least, that would mean that a Legion would need 10x stabs/each survivor and when we have to remember, that you could only stab with the old frenzy 2x times, 1 survivor in a real game situation (on average) ... Yeah that would end up in a chore.
Maybe 20% would be better. Would hard to find first a base rate, but after that the balance would be easy imo. Also it would give the ptb a reason to exist :).
Btw. being fast and stabbing is what the most people from the Legion want, or expect.
-You have never play dbd.
-One day you think you would like to play dbd and as killer, but which killer?
-You looking through the advertisment videos of the killers and then you see this fast running and stabbing guy in one video...
Can you with that in mind still blame players that they either want or expect a fast moving and stabbing killer?
That information crap they can take and put into a new killer. Doesn't work with this killer, since he is still known for the way he was advertised.
I have 250 hours on legion
And 40 on trapper
Legion is my main forever and I will keep playing him no matter the nerfs. It's just makes it more rewarding now that survivors literally have nothing to complain about ( yet they still grasp for any excuse cause it's legion) when getting 4k by me and I'm currently r5 on my way to r1. It's still suprising How many people TO THIS DAY DC against legion.
Then what were you trying to say? If the splitting up against the Legion is counterplay to his power, then that's his counterplay. Other characters have counterplay as well. Counterplay is not something Legion specific, and you have ways of forcing survivors to need to be closer together, through gen manipulation
That he doesn't need a counter to every aspect of his power.
As for losing sight of scratch marks, last I checked, 4 seconds is not long enough for scratch marks disappear, last I checked, they last for 10 seconds(around 7 with lightweight).
The scratch mark hiding is done in a very quirky way, this is something you'll prob notice if you play Legion a bunch but the new perk, Fixated, blows the lid wide open; scratch marks are flat out set to not spawn until after the FF fatigue worn off.
Likely done this way cause it has very similar effect and up until tomorrow only the killer could ever see them. But it's actually makes a huge difference since if you loose sight of your target you won't really have a trail to pick up. Like they vault a window just as your fatigue kicks in.
(For the record, Dance with Me hides your scratch marks for 3 seconds. So basically every fatigue is like a free, even more powerful DwM+Lithe combo for all survivors.)
I think blood works normally as both sides can already see it? Never actually verified tho.
Oh and Legion when using his power every chance he gets is not slower than old Legion, as I stated(with math).
I mean you said you did math but you never actually showed the numbers afaik. I also did some quick basic calculations tho.
(6*5,28 + 15*4,4 + 3*2,7)/(6+15+3) = 4,4075
(10*5 + 20*4,6 + 4*2,7)/(10+20+4) = 4,494
So yeah, the average speed might just be slightly bit better (.086m/s, or. ~2% improvement)
There are a few things to consider that are hard to quantify. Like old Legion could use a partially charged FF but also lost more charges per M1 hit, making old FF a lot more dynamic. And this wasn't the only change Legion got, one slight buff vs 10+ nerfs and fixes on a mediocre killer, is that really an equivalent exchange.
I dunno, high high and low low sounds better than always mediocre when it comes to their speed.
Watching the spotlight video today is really awkward, it specifically points out that Legion has no cooldown on missed attacks :P
Tho there are a few others spotlights that are also outdated and inaccurate due to balance changes. Like the Last Breath spotlight. Or the Halloween chapter as well, almost all the perks were changed over the course of years.
I think with a few perk changes, everyone could have lived.
Even I need to admit, that I have love all the Legion perks and I mean, all the perks. I had always use all of them + one aura reading perk, since finding a survivor is my weakness.
I am not bad at hitting someone, at m1 mind games and I was also not bad in using Legion's power successful, but oh boy... Sometimes it was really hard for me to find a survivor in the first place^^.
So I was happy with discordance, iron maiden and most times that aura perk that shows survivors auras after they have finish a gen for 8 seconds or what that was (don't know the name in english).
However, that core abilities not fit to what is shown in the video is a completley different topic and until the day where either the Legion match again, the things they shown in the advertisment video, or the day where they upload a updated advertisment video, it will for sure lead to upset customers.
I am by myself upset about that and I had a pretty high hit rate. Not important if we talk about m1 attacks or m2 frenzy hits. If it comes high, I had miss 1-2 times a survivor/match. Think that's ok.
Still, to have in mind that you are getting stunned after a missing hit takes for me a bit the freedom and fun away to play with the Legion.
I am also in general against anything that feels as it was mentioned as a punishment in games (it can be, but it should not feel like this) since I play games for fun and nobody pays me for doing it^^.
This guy does NOT play legion at all, plain and simple
They seriously need to take a break from releasing chapters and just work 3-6 months on QoL changes.
Absolutely, too many things are broken.
Including the matchmaking
You see if a killer is viable depending on his kit. Add-onless legion is horrible, with add-ons...meh because his power can't do anything to actually down survivors but some add-ons bring stall potential, yeah.
Hey thats a really nice legion build! What do you think about moniter and abuse on him as a 4th? Also what do you think about the new version of Dying Light?
Also may I ask, in what context would use each perk? (Talking about your 4ths) like when would you personally take Couloraphobia over Nurses or Nurses over bbq things like that. And which one do you run the most as his 4th?
Im really interested on your thoughts on the new Dying Light on him.
Well since we are restarting, and even though I told you numerous times, I'll tell you again.
I want Feral Frenzy, not the Deep Wounds part of the power, to be buffed.
Faster Movement and Vault Speeds, 2.5 or 3 Second Fatigue, being able to at least use power at 50% charge (or faster recharge, either or) and 25% Drain Per Missed Attack.
That's it. That will literally be all I need to shut up about Legion. No need to see blood or scratch marks (during Frenzy and Fatigue), no being able to hit survivors with power to knock down the bar. Of course the suggestions will be ignored but it's good to get it off my chest.
These afirmations only make me realise that you don't play Legion and you're saying this without a check.
Scratch marks last for 7 seconds (4 with lightweight), BUT Feral Frenzy completely removes blood pools and scratch makrs form the map and does not respawn them.
You only see scratch marks created a second after the fatigue ended. This is very easy to notice when playing Legion, even for the first time.
After that statement, what you said is only good on paper. You only hit 2-4 survivors with your power once in 20 games(no exageration tho) I play at red ranks but I'm currently at purple ones because of rank reset (just in case of the "rank 20" argument).
Assuming this, not even in map traversal his power is good, you reach further and faster by simply walking.
In the case you don't bealieve me:
5.0*10 + 2.7*4=60.8(Using frenzy)
Having a power that (almost) only gives information is not what you can call "decent" or "viable". What are you gonna do with all that stall and information if you can't step up the sacrificing process? Only this "benefit" in exchange for around 6 counterplay options.
It's more or less what @phantasmal said.
After my experience, you can call yourself lucky with that. I had in hundrets of matches 1 (in letters ->one<-) match where the survivors had really stick together in a 4 group.
2 people together I have sometimes encounter (I don't have count them), but that one 4 group gives me still chuckles if I remember how they have slowly crouch all toegether through the map :). Whas a picture for the gods :).
Edit: But to say something to the topic, I see no reason why a Legion should use his special abilitie. Either you are faster without it, or feeled 3 millionen stuns hanging over your head and just waiting for being activated.
With that in mind, imo, its better to use a m1 perk build and just m1 everyone.
Monitor is solid, helps with chases for any Killer, but is also nice for getting some Frenzy stealth stabs. New Dying Light could be better if it just carried over to the other Survivors it the obsession died, but I think it has a lot of potential to combo well with Thanatophobia and Pop Goes.
Personally, I run Bamboozle as my fourth perk slot. While the perk may state it does NOT affect pallets, I have recently discovered that it actually does increase the speed in which Legion vaults pallets in Frenzy. It’s VERY useful for countering the horrid vault speed we currently have.
When it comes to The Legion I'm always on the fence because recently I've been finding a ton of success with him all the way up into sadly low red ranks. I'd really prefer if other killers got a tune up sooner than Legion but I'd take anything.
I don't think legion needs too much buffing since he is the the softcore definition of anti-party play, but even then a good party or swf will make him pretty weak if they all stay solo he's got about nothing besides getting sprint bursted through half his ability then lithed though the other half to then just stun himself. However he has some of the best three gen and unhooking pressure. When i first used legion i literally quit him for over a year but now he's proving to be not only one of my best killers but the highest paying one with maybe doc and freddy being close rivals of just generating tons of money viably.
Thanks for the response! Oh yeah I think itd be perfect if you didnt lose your stacks for killing your obsession.
Oh bamboozle, noted! I didnt know it speeds up pallet vaults too, then it's probably really good for legion as it effects his powers more then it would other killers for example.
So you dont think you will be fitting dying light anywhere in your build then eh? Once i saw it i thought how itd be great on legion lol
I'm very unlucky in terms of survivors, if you can understand what I mean.
M1 all the game, or play another killer. At least clown has a power xD
That was a great inside joke for Legion's. Thanks for that :). I'm feeling with you^^.
Now, that we're at it, check this out and see Legion have a power.
Sounds almost good to me, but survivors should be still allowed to destroy totems while they are in dw.
In exchange, I would throw that missing hit penalty over board. Also that the power depletes if the Legion hits a injured survivor again, gives me a bit of a headache, if I think on how often I have encounter survivors that were just too far away from each other (so that tunneling was the only option, if you have not 2 or more see on the other site of the map doing gens or so - then it was worth to move on [thanks to discordance]).
But I need to say I would on board of every idea that buffs frenzy to its old, or near its old state and takes that freaking missing hit penalty away (something that you have do a bit).
As a Legion main who had mostly play without addons, I'm ok with everything - as long as I can run like Forest Gump and wild stab around like the knife killers from some horror movies :).
But that is just my opinion^^.