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"Fixing" Decent Killers

NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,899
edited September 22 in Feedback and Suggestions

Basically, I've made some threads that proposed how I would fix the low tier Killers.

The way I define my tier lists is such that A tier is the target for viability, with B tier being able to get results but are still not quite viable.

For C and D tier Killers as well as the clown due to his borderline status drastic changes are needed either to their fundamental mechanics or to their numbers. For B tier this isn't generally the case, but something is still needed for these Killers. Now to be more specific:

Ghostface

  • Decrease the cooldown on night shroud by 5 seconds
  • Decrease the initial detection zone size to pre-hotfix size (to prevent overcompensation)
  • While ghostface is in the Survivor's LoS but not being revealed with at least 20% visability the detection zone increases up to a maximum of 12% (3x the effect of the hotfix) over 4 seconds (3% increase per second). This ensures that you won't continuously try to reveal ghostface and fail due to being just outside the detection zone
  • When ghostface exits LoS with you, reveal progress drains at the same rate you gain it (66% progress lost per second), this means if you try revealing him for 1.4 seconds and then he breaks LoS for 1.4 seconds then you will have 0 reveal progress on him, and if he breaks LoS for 0.5 seconds then you will have 60% reveal progress on him.

Only the first of those changes is a straight balance change. The other 3 are designed to fix the inconsistency's caused by the buffer and wonky detection zones. If you get into cover before 1.5 seconds then you instantly stop being revealed while right now it takes 0.3 seconds to stop being revealed.

Lower cooldown means getting revealed is less punishing if you are going for exposed downs and that not going for exposed downs is more reliable as well. It doesn't effect the strength of the strategies, just their reliability and makes utility usage easier as well.

Plague

  • Make Blessed Apple base kit

That it. Now she is guaranteed to be able to use corrupt at least once making her more threatening and making cleansing a harder choice (do I think I can Survive a single Corrupt duration or should I cleanse to give myself an extra hit when she uses it at the cost of having her use it even more?) and would certainly fix her viability entirely.

Shape

  • Gain 1 stalk point per second of stalking Survivors (instead of a max of 0.833333333 depending on distance). Note that 5 points are required for each tier
  • Survivors have 15 evil within points instead of 10 (assuming 4 survivors) for a total of 60 EW points.

Again no other changes needed. Getting tiers faster means more time spent in T3 or less time in T1 and thus means he can use his strengths more often.

Comments

  • ocafghanistanocafghanistan Member Posts: 693

    I'd like that change to myers wonder if that would effect tombstone piece in a good way

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,899

    It's worth mentioning that for Tombstone Piece it would take 12.5 points to activate, for Judith's or Tuft of Hair it would take exactly 15 and with both Judith's and Tuft of hair it would take 25

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,899

    If needed the addons that increase stalk requirements could all have their effect increased by 50%

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 4,173

    While these killers need any buffs they can get, these changes are so minor that they wouldn't do anything significant enough to improve their viability.

  • Raven014Raven014 Member Posts: 1,607

    Personally, I think Micheal is fine, but then I'm on console... GF and Plague need those buffs I think. Their inconsistencies are their biggest weaknesses...

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,899

    That's deliberate. These are the Killers that are already relatively strong and just need that little push to put them into proper viability.

    I'm not trying to completely overhaul these Killers because they don't need it. There are plenty of other Killers that DO need it (all of which I gave their own thread), but these Killers are borderline. All I'm doing is removing the 1 weakness holding them back.

    Plague's is lack of consistent access to corrupt

    Myer's is long setup time

    Ghostface's is lack of flexibility (specifically, his kit is versatile, but the cooldown stops him from using it for too many things at once)

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 4,173

    Myers is borderline, but Plague and Ghostface aren't even close.

    Myers needs his multistalk back and remove the limit of stalk per survivor.

    Plague needs 1 fountain to corrupt every minute automatically.

    Ghostface needs all of his recent nerfs reverted and reduced cooldown on his power.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,899

    That horribly underestimates both Plague and Ghostface.

    If everyone is broken (which isn't that hard) then it becomes easy to snowball into an immediate victory with just a single corrupt (2-3 downs expected with 4 being plausible if you slug)

    Ghostface has the best stealth ability in the game by far and his instant down complements it perfectly. He doesn't need to be able to stalk exposed survivors, he doesn't need super amazing addons for his already fast stalk speed ect ect ect.

    These things would reduce his margin of error, but are not required for him to be viable. His limiting factor is his cooldown, not his actual ability.

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 4,173

    "That horribly underestimates both Plague and Ghostface."

    Because they are both not very good.

    "If everyone is broken (which isn't that hard) then it becomes easy to snowball into an immediate victory with just a single corrupt (2-3 downs expected with 4 being plausible if you slug)"

    If you are playing against potatoes, sure. Against even decent rank 1 survivors that just isn't happening. Zero healing leads to zero wasted time and you getting gen rushed to hell. Her Corrupted Vomit is also very easily avoidable to anyone that isn't a potato.

    "Ghostface has the best stealth ability in the game by far and his instant down complements it perfectly. He doesn't need to be able to stalk exposed survivors, he doesn't need super amazing addons for his already fast stalk speed ect ect ect."

    Against good rank 1 survivors you are not getting many stalks at all and are being broken out instantly. Even if you did get them exposed you are getting pallet looped into oblivion. We are talking about against actually competent survivors, not low rank people that have no idea what they're doing. He's a worse Myers in a world where Myers doesn't even make the cut.

    "His limiting factor is his cooldown, not his actual ability."

    Because you are spending the entire match with it sitting on cooldown with how easy they will be breaking you out before you can do anything. It is his actual ability because it's currently too easy to break out.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,899

    For ghostface if you are good at stealth (which you are if you are good with GF) then reveal mechanics are irrelevant. They don't come into play until they know where you are, and if they know where you are then you have failed at stealth (baring OoO which will be fixed soon anyways).

    And if you aren't that good at stealth you can still just walk up and stab them completely ignoring stalk mechanics in favor of free hits like a better Wraith. There are entire build that use that strategy as well and they work very well.

    Personally I prefer a Hybrid strategy where I go for stalking if and only if I have good visibility and somewhere to lean, and if not I just go directly for the hit without worrying about stalking them first.

    Just one or 2 stalks is enough to get momentum going before they realize it's Ghostface, and then from there you can just stab them to keep things going.

    As for Plague, you clearly haven't gone up against her enough if you think Corrupt is easy to dodge.

    If there are no obstacles then it's straight up impossible to dodge due to the fact that she can spray it everywhere giving you no room to move.

    If there ARE obstacles then it resolves like a 115% huntress who's hatchets are charged faster and are super easy to aim and can be arced better in order to go over tall structures if needed.

    Either way the lethality is insane. Considering that even without corrupt she's already better than most Killers this is a sufficiently big deal to boost her up to A tier.

    Also remember that Plagues will use Thanataphobia which on her means that gens will take 15 seconds longer. So the effective time to heal is 32 seconds assuming no perks or medkits. The time saved not healing vs a plague is 17 seconds if you are never chased and only do 1 gen.

    Every gen you do is 15 seconds slower than if you had been playing against a different Killer that you simply healed against, but since healing is a one time cost (until you are injured again of course) that means you only get the time save once but the time loss multiple times.

    But more importantly, looping for 5 gens without ever being hit against a competent Killer isn't really a thing anymore on most maps. So the amount of time saved needs to take into account that healing stalls the Killer by making them have longer chases. So if you can loop a Killer for 17 seconds then your time save is 0. And the longer can loop them the less the time save is.

    The only other reason to do the no-heal meta is because if you are injured but are about to proc adrenaline then it's faster to complete the gen. But of course against Plague that's meaningless.

    TLDR: No heal meta is overrated anyways and thanataphobia hard counters it if you are plague

    On other Killers Thanataphobia is unlikely to give you enough of a slowdown to be useful, but on Plague is basically just says "Survivors do gens 16% slower" which is a strong effect.

    Also healing is required to safely help other Survivors while the Killer is nearby, which is why not healing renders you potentially open to being 4 man slugged suddenly if you aren't SWF (or if you are and get cocky). Good Survivors aren't dumb enough to run into the Killers face to heal someone while they are injured of course, but the alternative is that they DO get the heal off and 1 downed/hooked Survivor is better than 2 injured Survivors. So if they don't heal the Killer benefits.

  • MochanMochan Member Posts: 2,116
    edited September 23

    In my opinion, the way to fix "decent killers" is to nerf survivors so that they have less mobility.

    Then you buff survivors so they have more stealth options to evade killers.

    This flattens out the mobilty advantage that the "Big Three" have while giving survivors more ways to hide and avoid or juke killers.

    You wouldn't even need to make any changes to the killers. And it takes care of the biggest complaint killers have: chases take too long. While forcing survivors to adapt and find other tactics to survive.


    One way is to implement a stamina bar for survivors so they have limited time running at full speed. Then you buff the peak running speed of survivors a little maybe. So chases start strong but killers easily catch them later, no more 5-minute chases.

    Then we can like, finally darken the map again and make it more atmospheric, help survivors stealth a little better and juke better, killers still have tons of perks to locate survivors anyway.

    And find some other mechanic that can help juke and evade. Maybe after the stamina bar depletes a survivor doesn't leave scratchmarks for 3 seconds. I don't know.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 3,899

    I've suggested that approach, but pretty much everyone said they didn't like the idea. Specifically I posted this on my alt account:

    I've also made a suggestion to the effect of a global speed buff to all but a few specific Killers (top tiers) for a similar effect, but people didn't seem to like that one either.

    So instead I'm doing the approach of looking at each Killer one by one and seeing what their problems are and addressing them. I've done this for every Killer worse than reworked Freddy (who I think is the worst viable Killer and doesn't need anything) and it's been the best received approach.

  • MochanMochan Member Posts: 2,116

    Yeah nobody likes that idea, I don't know what they want.

    It's like they just want straight buffs to killers across the board.

    Everybody hates long chases, but surprisingly nobody wants chases nerfed in this manner. It's confusing what people want.

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