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The Legion, worth it?

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  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764
    edited September 2019

    So, let's look at Legion. Starting with a big thing people look for in case a character isn't to their liking. Perks.

    Legion's unique perks are: Discordance, Mad Grit, Iron Maiden.

    Discordance: Any time two or more Survivors are working on the same Generator, that Generator's Aura is highlighted in yellow for 8/10/12 seconds.

    This perk is ok at best. Not bad, but not amazing either. It falls short due to the fact it makes a lot of noise which can be distracting and cover key sounds such as a drop grunt, footsteps, heavy breathing of an injured survivor, etc. On top of that if you're in a chase, you'll more than likely lose the gen regardless of if you drop it or not. It can help you quickly find survivors, and can help Legion's playstyle of wanting to keep multiple people injured.

    Mad Grit: While carrying a Survivor, you suffer no cool-down on missed attacks and successfully hitting another Survivor will pause the carried Survivor's wiggle timer for 2/3/4 seconds.

    Used purely in meme builds, and outclassed by Agitation(Which is free off Trapper), imo. Most people run this with Agi and Iron Grasp due to how funny it is to spam m1 and swing without cd. However, Agi gives more distance, faster speed, and that speed can get you a cheeky hit.

    Iron Maiden:

    You open Lockers 30/40/50 % faster.

    Survivors who exit Lockers suffer from the Exposed 

    Status Effect for 15 seconds and their location is revealed for 3 seconds.

    Only really used on Huntress for faster reload, but even then that's not really worth it. The exposed can be good for say, Cannibal, Hillbilly, Nurse, due to them often being locker juked. Otherwise and even then, pretty meh.

    So overall, perks aren't really worth it.

    Gameplay wise? 100% not worth it at all, especially due to how harshly he was nerfed, and I say that as a day 1 Legion main who didn't use Frank's or moonwalk. A stall killer, not really. It takes 15s, to mend, and if you were to hit multiple survivors yea, this could be helpful except for your fatigue. Let's assume you somehow get the drop and you have 4 clustered. Assuming you hit all 4, you'll have to fatigue which lasts 4s. By this time and after chasing down/hitting all 4 probably 2 have already mended and got back to work on gens.

    You cannot use your power to down anyone, and now must chase them. If they're any good at looping you have nothing to help you get them and are subject to the plethora of pallets, and other poor map design issues such as double pallet spawns, hyper safe windows, and "infinites." Not to mention, when injured there's no real reason to use your power except for a bit of stall, that won't really matter much if there's no one to chain. Chaining also can be a detriment cuz it leaves the original to heal. Being injured isn't scary and this is why so many people bring Adrenawin and ignore healing to just do generators.

    Legion's power comes with so many downsides it's unreal, anyone trying to say the "rework" was that and not just a huge nerf is lying. Don't care if they have _BHVR in their name either, they're lying.

    Buffs: 115% ms, 50% gauge lost instead of 100%. (Why should you lose power at all?) Iri Pin doesn't require you to be in Killer Instinct to break pallets. Still meh, and the infinite TR makes it so you literally don't have to mend while they're in Feral Frenzy.

    Neither: Longer Duration(Explained in nerfs.) Deep Wounds no longer drains in TR. Frank's made worthless. (I put these two in neither, cuz DW no longer draining in TR should've been baseline and needed to change. Frank's also needed a rework. More on it later.) Can no longer stab in FF to drain the Deep Wound Bar(Also needed, but could've been reworked.)

    Pin addons changed, but still worthless.

    Nerfs: Must wait for power gauge to fill before using power, 20s cd. Originally 15s to fill and could be used after 2-3s draining what little gauge you had.

    All speed #s cut, which funny enough makes the longer duration worthless. As you go so slow, and vault so slow that often times on longer loops you can just outrun the Frenzy. If everyone stays separated it won't matter if you find them cuz you're now on a 20s cd and a generic m1 killer. You won't use your power if you hit them either, you're just wasting time and your power at that point. Old speed was also much more fun/felt better.

    MASSIVE FOV CUT after power ends. This is a health hazard for some people too. I start to get a bad headache sometimes due to my screen randomly scrunching to a tiny black hole for literally no reason.

    4s fatigue up from 3s, and both cd addons nerfed.

    Can no longer see blood pools in Frenzy.

    TR bumped to 32 from 24.

    Missed attacks end Feral Frenzy. (This was done to avoid gaining extra distance by teching the swing. When survivors do it it's a fun, interesting mechanic the devs didn't expect, but a killer doing it is an exploit, and a problem.)

    On top of all this, Legion's nerfs were used to buff Borrowed Time, not once, but twice. Making it all that more effective.

    Old Legion was fun, and extremely effective if you played how you're currently forced to play which is Frenzy, tag, search, fatigue, m1 to down. Most players, even big streamers refused to play this way and would only play with Frank's/SWS, and moonwalked. All the while crying about how op/boring it was to play, while refusing to try and play any other way. While saying there was no other options. Which is just false.

    Funny thing is Stab Wound Study has always been worthless aside from a single PTB where they claimed to fix Legion by making him broken with Frank's+SWS, the two addons people complained the most about. While injured Feral Frenzy would down in two hits. Which really showed the devs didn't really know what to do with Legion, or how to fix him. Which is actually super easy to do.

    When you have to pop a box against Pig or break madness against Doc, moving resets your progress. Both of them have skillchecks as well. Pig's skillcheck fails drain a bit of progress and reveals your location iirc, Docs for sure drain all of your progression, and reveals your location. You also can't use items in T3 Madness. Deep Wounds you can just casually run away, sit in the TR and work on a gen, or hide, and then resume progress. Not to mention Pig's might not go off first box(Let's face it, it does most times, gg rng boxes), but it can also flat out kill a survivor.

    All Deep Wounds is good for is buffing Borrowed Time at this point.

    Here's a good fix to Legion:

    Revert to the original Legion, keep 115% ms.

    Add a bit more duration time, can be tested, even a few seconds would be nice.

    Change Deep Wounds to cause a "mangled debuff" instead of downing a survivor. If the survivor mends, they suffer from a x% penalty to action speeds for x(30?)s. Failing to mend bumps it up to a minute. Numbers can obviously be tweaked. This adds stall, makes Deep Wounds actually do something, and incentivizes keeping people injured more than the current iteration which is, "Being hurt is scary." Cuz, it's just not.

    This timer would start the second they mend or fail to mend. You could still even choose to multi-stab a survivor to force the debuff. 3 stabs to drain the bar. This way you'd still fatigue after stabbing a DW target and would have to decide if you wanna let your bar fill a bit and waste time to add the debuff or chase normally/find new targets. The timer starts, and drains immediately and cannot be reapplied until it wears off.

    Addons: Pins now apply only when mended, healed from the dying state, or unhooked, and now apply on the first application of Deep Wounds. This would actually give the debuffs time to be effective instead of just forcing you to fatigue to add a debuff that's going to tick down on the hook and be utterly worthless.

    Stab Wound Study: Each successful application of Deep Wounds grants you a stacking MS bonus until you fatigue. This encourages multi-stabbing, and keeping people injured while also being really fun.

    Frank's Mix Tape: Only two stabs while in frenzy to add the "mangled debuff", and bumps the respective timers up by 10 for mend, 15s for failed to mend. (Could add a 1s to fatigue as well as this is more for stall than quick chases.)

    Fuming Mix Tape: Feral Frenzy now has infinite duration when used outside of a chase. This is lost upon entering a chase, and is not continued with Killer Instinct. This would be a lot of fun to use, give really good map presence, help apply pressure, and gives Legion really good mobility, while not breaking their core.

    I've never seen Legion as a "Stall" killer and those cookie cutter, generic, and boring, "Thana, Dying Light, Ruin, double blade" stall builds are just awful. I see Legion as more of a rush down character. Get in quick, do some damage, keep rolling with the punches. Always keep moving. The new Legion feels like a slug that just desperately wants to roll itself in salt to end its misery.

    It's very obvious that Legion was knee-jerk nerfed based on crying from the community who never bothered to try anything different. Only two of those complaints were in any way valid. Moonwalking need to be addressed, and Frank's Mix Tape need to be as well. However, instead of fixing those issues, and addressing how bad his other addons were they just rolled out nerf, afte, nerf, after nerf. Even another nerf AFTER the PTB went live, CD addons.

    Did you know the bonus speed addons didn't do anything prior to the change, and that's why they got changed as well? That's ok, BHVR probably didn't either. Usually the community figures things out and they scramble to make it seem like it was intentional, or a bug that they wait god knows how long to fix if it's not relevant to the survivor side. Poor Clown has 30+ bugs, and the year+ old grab bug is still not addressed, but this is Legion talk so.

    BHVR, if you're reading this, actually talk to people who play these killers, and get meaningful feedback instead of just being arrogant and acting like you can do no wrong, or that you don't make mistakes. According to the statistics we got, Legion is the worst killer across all platforms, yet you still decided to utterly gut him and make him unbearable. We know you take ideas from the community, so please, consider mine. Consider slapping my Legion fix onto a PTB and let us test it out.

    Talk to people who actually play these killers, and not random content creators, especially ones who openly state they HATE a killer, ie: Legion as many people did. There were a ton of us that played him without moonwalking, Frank's, who knew how powerful and fun double CD was. Hell I played him without addons, at rank 1, and still did fine and loved them. Even at 110, I could still get easy hits and it felt rewarding. I'm pretty sure I have the screenshots, and maybe even video to prove it.

    Inb4, "Well I 4k at rank 1, and you're just stupid and not playing him right." I've got video of me 4king on the PTB, quad iri/perfecting when he hit live, and many games/screenshots of me doing after his nerf at rank 1 as well. You can do that as any killer at rank 1 if you keep at it. Legion is a broken mess, and I really hope BHVR listens, and gives us meaningful changes instead of Wraith 2.0. Multiple reworks, and still scraping the bottom of tier lists.

    If you wanna chat with me, or other like-minded people and are tired of being told to just run Ruin, or x generic build, join my server: https://discord.gg/r4KTbua We'd be happy to have you. You can discuss things with us, learn a thing or two, or just hang out and chill with a great community. We've got popular streamers, and even the wiki creator himself. If you join the server, click the book, and you're good to go.

    TL;DR: Old Legion was a lot of fun, people just played cheap and refused to play any other way or get better. They gutted/nerfed the hell out of them so no. New Legion isn't worth it at all. Save your money, buy Doc, or Pig if you want a "stall" killer. At least with them you get decent perks.

    Post edited by Caretaker on
  • MochanMochan Member Posts: 2,886

    The concept is literally the same. The concept for Legion has always been a killer who runs around doing mass stabbings.

  • LCGasterLCGaster Member Posts: 3,154

    So, I know that Legion's update should be only temporary waiting for their full rework

    Honestly I'd rather be fast than run for longer

    An acquaintance of mine did the math, if a survivor is 10 meters away all the have to do is to run in a straight line to not get hit

    I know the power had to be changed, but it was definitely more fun before, unless of course one of those bs tacticts and add-ons got used

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764

    It's so nice to see intelligent people that see why this rework was just a huge nerf, and that these changes did not help at all. Bravo.

  • CaretakerCaretaker Member Posts: 764
    edited September 2019

    Little addition to my monster post that I'll edit, but still wanted to add here.

    When you have to pop a box against Pig or break madness against Doc, moving resets your progress. Both of them have skillchecks as well. Pig's skillcheck fails drain a bit of progress and reveals your location iirc, Docs for sure drain all of your progression, and reveals your location. You also can't use items in T3 Madness. Deep Wounds you can just casually run away, sit in the TR and work on a gen, or hide, and then resume progress. Not to mention Pig's might not go off first box(Let's face it, it does most times, gg rng boxes), but it can also flat out kill a survivor.

    All Deep Wounds is good for is buffing Borrowed Time at this point.

  • yeetyeet Member Posts: 1,814

    too bad the only thing he can delay is himself from getting downs

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