Fair enough, every hatch escape via key is a loss, every escape due to adrenaline/ds is a loss, every escape due to blind is a loss.
NOED is just a second chance perk. I have won many games without it. My adept killer achievements verify this. But I'd still rather have it in my back pocket in case I mess up. Just like I'm sure survivors like have their "oops i screwed up" perks.
But the thread is about Ruin and BBQ so I'm going to leave it alone now.
TL;DR = NOED is just a second chance perk.
BBQ is not that strong of a perk, it is used for its 2x BP REALLY, and it is countered by so many simple things.....
Ruin is needed if you want enough time in a game at low ranks if you want a chance at killing people, without ruin before you blink 2 gens are done. if you want to see ruin gone do 1 or both of these things
buff killers across the board to where they can apply pressure fast enough without the use of ruin
make it take longer for survivors to complete the objective to escape, THIS CAN BE DONE IN WAYS OTHER THEN INCREASING GEN TIME, like adding a second objective, adding more gens, etc etc etc.
BBQ wont go away unless its points bonus goes away, but that wont happen because it is not that strong it is just used for BP, and ruin is so needed because of how badly this game is balanced in the survivors side.
Actually yes they are a loss. Except the Key. The Key is BS and shouldn't be able to be found in the trial without plunders. That is nothing as a killer you can control unless they bring it in.
All my adepts speak for themselves as well not sure why you brought this up honestly. I still don't use NoeD personally. I find it a weak perk that honestly rewards failure. I prefer a proactive approach to the game and being rewarded for me doing well.
Also I'm not saying you suck for using it. It's not my intention to call you out for using it. I was just stating that the 8 perks you said were amazing are not exactly so and to help you provide better info.
Why are yall arguing about No'ED in a topic not about it?
Anyway BBQ is just used for BPs.
Ruin wouldn't be used as much if Lower Tier killers were able to put pressure on the map earlier in the game then "Oh well, there's my down and 2 gens popped."
This isn't even good bait...
He’s right in a way, Ruin shouldn’t be mandatory.
I’m against extra BP being tied to perks, personally.
The detection part of BBQ needs to be removed. I find this a reasonable nerf because Killers only use BBQ for BP anyway, not for its detection ability.
It is beneficial for you that killers get a 40m aura.
This promotes anti camping. If I see no aura on my bbq I will stay at the hook for a little while.
You do realize that Self Care has been nerfed into Oblivion?
I actually barely ever see WGLF run.
and that's where you'd be wrong! i use it for its detection ability all the time on every killer, as well as for bloodpoints. :P
If people think than Ruin is a strong perk, then you should recognize that BBQ is a strong perk.
The many "simple" things you mention that counter BBQ are precious seconds Survivors waste hiding instead of doing things, like gens.
I'm glad you are an honest killer!
So many killers here like to downplay BBQ and deny it's any good, saying killers only use it for the BP and not for the Aura Detection.
But the moment I suggest nerfing the Aura Detection they all go ballistic.
Actually BBQ promotes camping. Because it gives killers vital information on whether they should camp or not. Just like you said.
Removing the aura detection means killers have no idea if it's a good idea to camp or not, so they end up leaving the hook.
The bigger question is when will Killers figure out that PGTW is way better than Ruin.
It promotes camping when the killer sees no auras of survivors, whilst most will likely just assume it's the survivors going into a locker to hide their aura, it also could mean that the survivors are nearby and that no one is working on a faraway generator, rather nearby ones.
You can easily mislead the killer by showing your aura, going one way, and then going the other way. Giving the killer misinformation on where to go next. Works best if the killer sees only one survivor and they're faraway, making a safe unhook and heal easy.
You don't need to tell me how to counter BBQ. I have played thousands of matches against it. Also the "counter" you mentioned isn't something a solo can do. How would a solo know that no other aura other than his own is visible? And a smart killer will know that someone is camping the hook in that case.
I am saying the aura reading needs to go. It is a too powerful perk that does too many things for the killer. It needs to be nerfed.
Lol. Your disconnect from objective reality is so great as to be comedic to read. Instead of debating it I think everyone should just have a good laugh.
The best part is you really believe it. It isn't just a meme for you.
@Mochan Correct me if I'm wrong, but why does it need to be nerfed?
It only gives the killer information on where the survivors are if they are far away from them, and most of the time those survivors are near generators where the killer will most likely patrol anyways. BBQ and Chili only gives the killers a 4 second aura read and then it's gone until you hook someone else.
After those 4 seconds, the killer is presumably still far away from the survivor and the survivor can still run away from the killer if they see them, hear their heartbeat or had Spine Chill/Premonition light up to alert them they are coming. I see it no different to a killer patrolling generators and finding scratch marks right after.
Yes this can be a problem for killers that has high mobility that allows them to reach their halfway to their destination before the 4 second timer runs out, but that's like 3 killers out of the 17 in total (4 if you count Spirit).
But again, the point is to bait killers to go after survivors that are FAR AWAY from the hook and encourage them to chase different survivors to get the BP Tokens. If they see no survivors around, then they will try to bait survivors to go for the save by proxy camping. Or they will just patrol the nearby generators to see if any of them are being worked on.
Sorry if this is becoming a text wall, I just want to make sure I got my thoughts out nice and clear ^^;
lol seconds are only precious to killers, gens can go by so quick It is fine if a survivor is off a gen for a few seconds
I do not use BBQ, but I do not think it needs to be nerfed. It encourages the Killer to go chase someone else, and it only gives a bit of an aura that you can avoid, for 4 seconds. It is not in anyway OP and I do not understand how you can think it is. Even Billy would still have to CATCH the aura once he got there. I am sorry, but I do not follow your reasoning at all.
BBQ should not be changed.
Ruin SHOULD be changed, it's a far too RNG-reliant bandaid to the poor time dynamic that exists in the game. There is nothing else in the game that even comes close to its ability to stall in the crucial early moments of the game. Ruin should be changed, but it should happen alongside a change to the early game or secondary objectives.
Maybe instead of making it lose progression for good skill checks and no progression for great skill checks, it should act more like The Third Seal.
Survivors who get hit by the killer gets affected by Ruin for a certain amount of time, which increases per tier. And it shouldn't be reduced progression, it should be like autodidact's skill checks where it's only good skill checks without any means to lose progression. That way Ruin can still have the benefits of stalling generators without it being too RNG reliant or being too powerful if no one finds the hex totem.
I may just be spitballing though, I don't know the first thing that comes into game balance as I am not a game designer. I just think that maybe this is a good idea to replace Ruin with something else that sounds decent. But maybe it just sounds decent on paper. On practice this might be a horrible idea and I welcome anyone to prove me wrong with this idea.
That still has major issues. We have plenty of tools to stall that work well later in the game like Pop Goes the Weasel, and a heap of slowing perks.
The issue is that all of them take time and hooks to get going, by which point 2-3 gens are almost guaranteed to be done already.
If Ruin were to work off hits it would have the same issues, if not worse, since to get it to do anything worthwhile you'd have to keep abandoning chases. It would simply remove all of the pressure it applies during the early game which is the only reason people run it.
It's also counter-intuitive like the add ons Billy and Bubba have to slow repair speed on chainsaw hits, because if you're triggering it, that person it either in a chase or completely incapacitated and burning the debuff duration for nothing.
Why are people still complaining about Ruin and BBQ ? Both are easily counterable.
Ruin is the only stall perk that doesn't require you to fulfill a special condition, doesn't require the killer to waste time kicking generators, works immediately at the start of the game, slows down every survivor on the map (Including the ones that you're not chasing) and provides value even if the survivors hit every skill check.
It's consistent, it's powerful, and the perk is at its most powerful when you need it most; right at the start of the game, when the survivors have free reign over the generators and the killer has no idea where any of them are.
This! I probably would replace bbq with infectious or something else, but j can't ignore the double bp
The only survivors who hate bbq now are the ones who are too lazy to hop in a locker or get closer to the killer. I cannot comprehend why people think its such a strong perk, i rarely even use it as killer anymore. Only when i'm looking to get lots of points.
I get how Ruin can be boring to go against every match, I feel the same way but I'm not any better. I use it on most of my M1 killers too.
BBQ has so many counters I don't think anyone should be complaining about it. Like, hide behind a gen, hide in a locker, stand still for 4 seconds, walk in one direction for 4 seconds then turn around, run Distortion etc
It's a nice tracking tool and gives some easy double bloodpoints in this grindy game.
Because BBQ is so prevalent that it forces you to play with it in mind every time.
Which means either counter it and lost time or ignore it and just go for broke genrushing (which is what happens in higher ranks).
It doesn't matter in high ranks but it's a huge headache for lower ranks.
It's not healthy for the game that has already become increasingly hostile to survivor stealth strategies.
If we want to nerf looping and fix palettes BHVR still needs to provide alternatives so Survivors still have other tools to survive. Stealth is the most logical alternative.
Nerfing BBQ is necessary to make that possible. Otherwise looping will be here to stay.