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Why does everyone keep asking the wrong question when it comes to Spirit?

ScottJundScottJund Member Posts: 1,040

Its the same thing as Legion. Everyone talked about the old Legion being "overpowered" and people debated it saying he was "underpowered." I feel like people are missing the true reason for complaints against things like old Legion and current Spirit: they're not interactive experiences between both sides.

The whole core gameplay loop (heh) of DBD is the interaction between the Killer and the Survivors, and the Survivors and other Survivors.

The Old Legion, for example, removed that. There was no counterplay. No matter what, you were going to go down (eventually) even if it took a while. At that point, the interactive multiplayer component was removed - you were just basically playing "The Legion Cutscene."

Spirit is some of the same issue, though not as grim. There is no feedback from the Survivor side when going against Spirit. When she's using her power, the Survivor isn't reacting to anything - they're choosing an action and just hoping that was the correct one. That is not an interactive multiplayer experience. That's a single player game. The Survivors might as well be bots that are preprogrammed to choose an action.

And that's why Survivors hate Spirit. Their sense of choice isn't reactionary - its just a random choice they make and they hope they are correct. You cannot react to the Spirit while she's phasing until she is very close to you - at which point you will finally be able to hear her footsteps and bump into her. However, if she's that close to you you're just going to get hit and she can also bump into YOU, so that is irrelevant. That is the only time you can reliably react to what she is doing. No, you can't reliably study her "crystals" that require you to be in her face, not moving, and also requires her to not have a skin that obfuscates them.

Even though Nurse is stronger, she's still less annoying to go against. That's why I hate when people keep boiling down the argument to "Spirit is overpowered, underpowered, etc." That's not what Survivors are complaining about. You can at least see the Nurse blinking at you and react to it with a locker rushed entry, a Dead Hard, etc. While the Nurse still has way more control in the chase, at least you can literally tell what she is doing and make a choice based on that.

Its not even about lack of counterplay. Its just...the complete lack of "play" entirely. When a Spirit starts phasing near you, you can choose an option based on your surroundings and just hope it works. That's not rewarding. Even if you choose "correctly" and waste her power for 10 seconds, you don't feel good about it. You just guessed correctly, and then you'll have to guess again in 10 seconds. Meanwhile, the Spirit can react to your breathing sounds, your injured sounds, your scratch marks, your collision, the grass you shift when walking through it, etc. The Survivor can react to none of that because they can't see or hear any of that until she is so close they're hit anyway.

So how to you fix it?

You have to make her somewhat noticeable while phasing, and then buff the frequency at which she can use her new weaker phase. Whether they returned directional audio to her sound (and tied Prayer Beads to the current non-directional sound), or maybe greatly amplified her footsteps, or made her shuffle grass as she walked through it - anything. Survivors need some even extremely vague indicator of where the Spirit is, and in turn the Spirit needs to be able to use this power far more frequently. It would be a nerf and a buff, cancelling each other out while giving her some semblance of counterplay, even if it is still sided towards the killer as it should be.

Anyway that's all I got.

tl;dr stop discussing whether or not Spirit is overpowered and discuss whether or not both sides can react to each other in this multiplayer game.

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Comments

  • DelsKibaraDelsKibara Member Posts: 3,127

    I'm also a Spirit main and I agree with the proposed fix. Giving Survivors an indication to where the Spirit is would make it easier for Survivors to track her.

    I've always said myself that you can counter her by tricking her where to go, doubling back on your scratch marks, make fake scratch marks, use noise to misdirect her, etc etc. But without knowing exactly where she is might make these counters difficult.

    Just hearing her footsteps or grass shuffling should give survivors enough indication where she is and how close she is towards you, and how risky or safe it is to do an action where you might end up getting grabbed.

    Overall, I want the survivors to also have fun, but I also want to have fun. Which is why I've been fighting against Spirit being nerfed. But this seems to be the solution that would satisfy both sides of the aisle. Hopefully.

  • MisterCremasterMisterCremaster Member Posts: 614

    I think an interesting option would be to have her entire world 'phase shift' as she is coming out. So as she leaves phasing, palettes, survivors, hooks, etc (basically anything intractable) is also phase shifting and flickering or possibly out of alignment. This would give the survivors more of a chance too, since as she comes out, she may see them in a slightly different location than they are.

    IMO, the real strength of Spirit is just like that of Nurse & Billy. Its about mobility. I'm not great at phasing during a chase. My primary benefit with her is putting on phase-speed bonus's to get across the map fast when I get survivor queues.

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 18,599

    My issue, though, with your argument here is that it's meant to be a game. Games, by definition, are meant to be fun. It may be a survival horror game, but it's a game nevertheless, like F13 or LY:TN; and that fact should overrule all else. Its a game, it needs to be fun for everyone involved (ik genrush etc but that's a whole new topic). Movies need to be entertaining, games need to be fun; it's two completely separate ideas here.

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 5,057

    I mean, those are two separate unrelated problems. I totally get the frustration about game speed and whatnot, but Spirit only helps so much against an optimal 4 man. Kind of need Nurse for that unless you can match the 2k hrs those groups have in the game

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,631

    The thing with spirit is that if she has a noticeable indication that shes phasing is every game will turn into a walkathon.... itll even more boring then it is now for some players..... also it's not as if she doesnt give indication in her current state (glass shards glow when she phases, her hair spikes up when she phases, this kinda looks ugly so it may be a bug), she also brings a completely different way of performing a chase, this is good for the game since the game has to keep changing if the devs wanna get another 5 years out of DBD..

    Fun is subjective, just because there's a group of players saying such and such isnt fun doesnt mean theres another group saying that samething is really fun. Me personally, I find map wide Bing bongs to be the most annoying/unfun thing in the game..

  • AshleyWBAshleyWB Member Posts: 4,062

    I scanned through the OP, seems like he's in favour of a nerf to spirit. Hmm...

    I just think about how Wraith is supposed to be the invisible killer yet spirit is impossible to see during phasing. Maybe if Spirit had some sort of visual indication that she is phasing towards you in chase that would make her less counterplay able and not really affecting her strength.

    I personally think scratch marks in phasing should have a tiny bit larger delay in appearing. I think she needs a tiny change to become more fair. I fear she will get the op label and receive a significant nerf down the line.

  • FreudentraumaFreudentrauma Member Posts: 1,044

    Maybe the first couple of hours facing her. After that it's just annoying. Horror and fear doesn't work well after too much repetition. That's when the game feel/gameplay is important.


    It's a problem because like Scott wrote, it's important for the game feel that both sides needs to feel in control in some way. Moonwalks and loops e.g. aren't comparable with Spirits facing. Look at Nurse e.g. She works better, because even though you can't loop her and her entire chase game is different, is that she still gives survivor feedback and play. Different play than other killers, but isn't annoying like Spirit is. Or old Legion.

  • FriendlyGuyFriendlyGuy Member Posts: 2,768

    I just say if you don't like versing her quit the game. I quitted OW for that reason. Mei was incredibly annoying for me as a main tank, the devs didn't changed her for a long time, i quitted the game.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    A reaction is not the only kind of interaction and it is actually one of the least interesting.

    Specifically because a reaction has a 100% correct answer. It is possible to program a bot with a perfect reaction time that will never be hit ever.

    Predictions are an alternative form of interaction. Without a neural network or complex evolutionary algorithms you can't program an AI to reliably predict a Human. However a Human CAN predict another Human. This is because people are not perfectly random, especially if the options that can be predicted have distinct outcomes regardless of being predicted or not.

    Other than reactions (seeing what someone does and preforming a counter strategy) and predictions (using what someone has done to project into what they will do and then counter that) there is teamwork and a bunch of misc skills used for execution rather than the interaction portion (ex: Aim, Strategy ect)

  • humanbeing1704humanbeing1704 Member Posts: 6,686

    I'd use iron will but oh wait most spirits use stridor

  • Rin_is_my_waifuRin_is_my_waifu Member Posts: 963

    Just read it carefully. There is an imploed meaning

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