Why does a killer have to lose because someone Escape? There are four people lol that's part of the problem, this entitlement culture. A killer isn't entitled to a 4K. Why don't they add hard skill checks to completing a Mori or right before you hook someone? So it's not as easy as just pressing a button.
Yeah keys do require work to pull off an escape. I don't think people realize just how difficult it is to get a team of 4 solo survivors to repair all five generators and have everyone still alive to escape via the hatch.
I think moris are fairly well balanced to be honest. I like the dynamic moris and keys add to matches.
I don't think they're balanced at all, there's no counter, no skill, and they eliminate 70% of the objective. There's a reason survivors disconnect when they see a Secret Killer offering, they're also not fun to go against. At least with the key you can't use it at the start of the match, you still have to fulfill the conditions for the key to work.
They are not balanced IMO. They are in a similar position to Moris IMO where the low-ranking one sucks (Cypress Mori and Broken Key) and the others are OP (Ivory/Ebony Mori and Dull/Skeleton Key).
Also, you talk about how the Killer has failed in gen protection when all four Survivors escape, but the real problem with Keys (IMO) is that two/three Survivors can escape before the Gens are finished, when the Killer has NOT YET failed in protecting the gens.
"Counters: The final reason I think keys are balanced is because there is a number of counters to them already existing in the game. Franklin's Demise, killing the survivor with the key, finding hatch before survivors do etc."
None of those things do anything meaningful against the Key. Forcing someone to drop the Key with Franklin's just means it can be picked up later, killing the Survivor with the Key also just means someone else (especially in a SWF) can just pick it up later and escape, and finding the Hatch doesn't accomplish anything unless you go to it when the Survivors are making their move.
i literally said its okay if someone escapes with a key, however if they get a 3 man escape because of one key, that is way too strong.
there is a difference between one and 3 escapees. and yes, i lost if 2 or more escaped. just ask the emblem system that makes me depip with a freakin 3k!
yeah that's a real problem with this game way to much cheap tactics/items
I think they are fairly well balanced. Like keys, moris require some work to be able to use them: you have to find, down, hook and then chase the survivor down again. It's a time consuming process. I can understand why some people find them frustrating but I like the variety they add to matches.
Although moris are a separate issue to keys entirely.
I see your point but without the items, perks and offerings I think gameplay might become very stale. Doing generators and chasing survivors can get very monotonous and repetitive.
I'd be fine with keys if they other survivors couldn't pick up the key after they're killed with it. Also people are saying that its hard for every survivor to escape because they have to do all the gens but most people who are complaining are probably talking about the situations where they get punished for killing a survivor because if they do 4 gens then the rest of the survivors can escape
If a survivor runs a Weaved Ring (to not lose the key on death) then the key won't be dropped on death so other survivors can't pick it up.
When I see people using keys, they tend to be combined with either the Weaved Ring or Milky Glass add-on.
This logic of "Keys and Moris requiring work" makes zero sense to me because they both require LESS work than the work needed to just kill/escape the normal way. It feel like people who rely on this argument think the people against Keys/Moris believe that they are like old insta-heals in that you can just push one button whenever you want to get a big boost.
People that think there is no skill to using keys clearly haven’t used a key before or have just been lucky enough to get the hatch to spawn. In front of them.
Sometimes even in SWF you have to coordinate the whole thing on your team is dead. Yesterday I was playing with some friends against a Trapper who wanted to basement hook everyone only to tunnel them off hook and mori everyone. Hex Ruin right next to shack (trapper where basement was) and 3 gens right next to it as well... he had mad grit/agitation/iron grasp/ no ed so he came prepared.
Well, 2 teammates ended up dying on hook but because we managed to do 3 gens, hatch spawned and we found a key on a chest.
I don’t consider that a “free” escape just because we didnt touch the gens near the shack. There was no way in hell we could have miraculously fixed two gens with the way he was camping his hex and the survivors.
Sometimes people need to take into consideration what goes into a match before judging if something is “fair”, you can’t get the hatch to open for simply holding a key in your hand.
Just my 2 cents
Getting to the hatch first as killer isn't a counter. You can not grab them anymore. You are powerless.
I 100% agree.
Yes but knowing the location of the hatch before the survivors do is a powerful piece of information. It allows you to encourage survivors to move away from that areas during chases or put pressure on certain areas of the map to make them less likely to discover the hatch's location.
But people here are saying that keys provide free escapes with no work. My argument is that they do require some work (albeit less than a normal match) which makes them more balanced than people are suggesting.
Key should only let escape one survivor whos using it and the hatch should be immediately closed after it so the whole team cant escape
But keys benefit the user instead of stealing them pips and BP.
As someone who recently swapped from killer to survivor, I can say with confidence that keys are just as unbalanced from this side too.
I was playing a game the other day, 4 gens done, but one survivor was dead and everyone else was on final hook. I was running between gens when I picked up the key. I ran to a typical hatch point, and to my surprise it was there... With the other 2 survivors having a heal party on it.
I popped the hatch, and we were all out. Just like that. The person who brought in the key wasn't even alive anymore, the killer clearly brought Franklin's, and still, we all got out for free, without playing through the 3 gen, or the endgame, all on our last hooks. I've been on the other side now, and whether they're beneficial to me or not, keys still feel unfair, and not fun at all for the killer.
This is an unlikely situation though. The chances of this happening in a match are so unlikely that it isn't a regular occurrence. For this to happen a specific sequence of events had to occur. I'm okay with survivors escaping via the hatch like this once in a while as killer - it keeps the games unique and interesting.
Those people are wrong. But that doesn't make Keys balanced IMO.
Keys aren't that strong, they don't eliminate 70% of the objective and can actually hurt Survivors too. You're not always gonna Safety Pip from using the Key to Escape. Likewise, a Mori also deprives the Survivor of BPs and Pips. Maybe that's the issue? A simple guarantee of a Safety Pip if someone uses a Key or a Mori would help make it feel less painful for both roles?
Mori's eliminate 70% of the Objective up to four times, a Key doesn't even come close. I think if a Key could open the Hatch after one Generator was completed, it would feel very strong. I wonder if the solution is to provide a Safety Pip since I'm starting to think the heart of the issue are BPs and losing a Pip. If you got a Safety Pip for either role, maybe no one would care so much.
I dont see how letting survivors have a get out of jail free card is fair at all.
"Mori's eliminate 70% of the Objective up to four times"
I want to understand your math because 70% makes no sense to me.
I wasn't the one that originally said it, it was someone on here far more insightful on another thread. I think it was factoring in three hooks at 33.33% each and just rounded up to 70%. Up to four times, referring to the Ebony Mori.
I'm not too sure what you mean by moris eliminate 70% of the objectives. This number seems very random and not to come from any actual source. A generator being repaired is not on par with a survivor being hooked because it takes (at most) 12 hooks to kill all survivors but only 5 generators need to be repaired for the survivors to escape.
When you describe the key as a 'get out of jail free' card then it doesn't sound fair. However, keys aren't 'free' and require some degree of work and prior setup to actually perform a successful hatch escape. Reducing the key to a 'get out of jail free' card isn't a fair analysis of the key's functionality in my opinion.
The Ebony Mori eliminates eight of the 12 hooks needed, so that is nearly 70% reduction or elimination in the conditions to kill everyone. The number isn't random and you don't need a source to come up with a percentage lol