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According to BHVR's own stats

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  • CymerCymer Member Posts: 946

    The Hag was the reason I initially picked up the game and ever since she is my most beloved killer.

    She has a very strategical playstyle and cannot simply run down the survivors like a hillbilly. (good hillbilly still needs skill and his chainsaw jumps, curves and flicks are amazing to pull off!)

    You need to lay out your web, understand how the survivors will react and lure them into your web.

    That's not everyone's favorite playstyle, plus she needs some set up time.

  • HellbughunterHellbughunter Member Posts: 83

    The problem is if you wanted to compare the powers of killer you would need to compare killers without perks and addons. Just looking at this chart and saying "but freddy kills more than Spirit" completly misses the point that a killer is more than just his power, it´s also his usage of perks and addons that make a killer kill as much as they do. @Peanits Thanks for the statistics they are pretty interessting.

  • PickCollinsPickCollins Member Posts: 495

    I do admit Hag is one of the most galaxy brain killers in the game. From an outside perspective it's honestly very entertaining to watch Hag gameplay. The mindgames and strategy is admirable.

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,620

    @UncannyLuck That's what he is doing for the whole time. Picking up stats, representing them in a wrong way, drawing false conclusions, making them up for his opinion. I already thought "what a waste of time I put into my post clarifying this, simply getting ignored, getting another post wqith the same **** "

    @PickCollins You are still ignoring that the ultra bad console performeance of nurse is part of the chart you are refering to. And SEVERAL other points missing in this chart like Peanits mentioned. Like this is raw numbers across the board. Factors like "non-nurse-mains currently testing her because of the change" and of course main-nurses that need to adapt atm.

    "I had said "the only reason" because I can't think of any reason" that's exactly what I criticised. It is a tiny difference in text to add "for me" after "the only reason", but without it you present it as fact being the only thing possible. Sorry if I'm too petty on this one, but many people reading too fast or not think about it take it and get biased.

    Also the "muscle memory" statement is false. Nothing changed on her muscle memory by adding blink delay. And as said before, if you think a viable killer should get regular 3-4k, you are simply wrong. If that was the case to you, you give the perfect example of an OP killer. If she is no fun to you by not getting regular 4k, then you are going to have a problem with this game on the long run. Then you might have to stick on Freddy as long as he will get no nerf, then switch to the next best performing killer as soon as Freddy gets the nerf...

    @Akhaten Probably because this might take a whole stream or even more to clarify. And with subliminal comments like to not_Queen you can be sure to be ignored or get sarcastic comments

    @Endstille your logic is flawed. In what school did you learn that a 4 man team has any impact on a thousands people statistics? Or any statistical relevance? Omans gave an example and did not justify any statistics. He said 'they are not potatoes' in contrast of what you read from it. Sure we just can believe if this is true and they did not fail in chases. But Omans just stated that chases are still over pretty quickly if you can blink properly. Also he said "it is guaranteed" not "I guarantee". And "you know" that people suck in chase if they get downed within 20 sec? Ok. Regarding the bulls* I get accused from other survivors that are not even near me like "u did nothing" I'm pretty sure you also think to know much more of a game than you possibly can. You take judgement on tiny fragments would be my guess

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,642

    Okay I'm not going to disagree with you completely... maybe bhvr can dial the cooldown in a bit to where it doesn't feel as bad as it does for some players...

    With that said can you start using the proper term for what she recieved... which is an update and a nerf... rework is not what she recieved.... not even close.

  • TheKingOfAllTheKingOfAll Member Posts: 73

    People who are still crying about spirit are just the bad spirits. If you needed prayer beads to win, you were a bad spirit. If you needed to bump into survivors to find them, you were a bad spirit. If you relied on not having a window vault animation, you were a bad spirit. Same with the nurse. I do agree they went a little overboard by changing her base power, but her addon changes were fair. If you required 5 blinks, you were a bad nurse. If you required omega blink, you were a bad nurse.

    Both the nurse and the spirit are still extremely strong, but with the new balance changes it becomes slightly more difficult to learn how to play as them. A larger penalty for missing your blink. Not being able to run into a survivor for a free hit while phasing. The removal of very broken addon combinations. None of these things effect really good nurses and spirits. All you have to do is play a little better, put in a little more effort, get a little more practice, and you will be absolutely fine.

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,620

    @TheKingOfAll Just a minor disagree on the omega nurse :P If you were a bad nurse, you couldnt handle omega blinks in chase. At least I encountered that a lot. Sure she could pressue gens better, but I'm not a master baiter (jokes incoming) against nurse, and bad nurses for me were blinking too far in chase. I sometimes even got irritated by nurses vanishing behind the walls I was running at :)

    On all other things I agree with you

  • copperslycoppersly Member Posts: 2,318

    Basekit changes effect everyone regardless of what addons they were using.

    No, it isn't just a small change, it affected a lot of her kit and effectively eradicated her mind-games.

    No, you don't need to put in a little more effort, you need to completely change the way you play Nurse otherwise you end up making chases last so long you think you're in a joke game.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246
    edited November 2019

    @Deadeye

    Maybe you should try to comprehend what I actually said. But I will skip some passive-agressive comment about your school education.

    Omans did say that he can guarantee that the majority of people are fine with the changes that is literally what he wrote, check his post and check my quote of it.

    "It's frustrating seeing the same nurse mains make post after post after post about the nurse changes when I can guarantee the vast majority of people are fine with them."

    Furthermore I never did say anything about having an impact on statistics with my swf. I gave an example as to why doubt his entire story in which he claimed

    I played a game with her yesterday at rank 1. 4k on farm map. The only mistake the survivors made was 2 of them spawning next to each other.

    Sorry but if you actually believe that the survivors did play perfect (remember the only mistake in the entire game was spawning next to each other [which is something they do not have any influence on without playing an offering]) and chases end super quickly than they sure as hell did not play without mistakes and instead did alot of them. His story doesn't add up at all since he 4ked them. Yeah sure I am gonna wait for the video, really wanna enjoy those perfect survivors that go down so quickly in chases yet play without mistakes.

    The actually sad part about all of that is that

    • I have to post this again in hopes you might be able to understand
    • People like Omans completely ignore the feedback from people
    • People like him take a single game as proof for anything
    • people like him equal fun=power
    • are unable to comprehend what the nurse players actually said
    • reduce feedback of nurseplayers to some strawman about Omega/5 Blink

    When in reality most nurse players (the ones on this forum) actually agreed that omega/3;4;5-Blinks needed to go.

    I challenge you, go through these forums and find me the outraged nurse mains that those addons are gone, i didn't read that and if actually somebody said that he wants it back even these evil nurse mains would explain to him that this needed to go and why it was op.

    So these evil nurse mains that already played her with the basekit back when all this broken stuff existed, now get told, hahaha git gud you n00b, adapt boy, you just want omega/3;4;5 blinks back.

    That is the way that @Omans argues on the forums, the way that alot of people do to ignore actually constructive criticism another did this this really classic to when asking if people are on crack (shows how mature you are). Oh and btw before you bring it up one more time, no to 4k with a nurse was never the issue, not now and especially not in the past but for people who are still not able to understand what was said after literally daily posts about it, it seems useless to explain it again.

    Sidenote: This at least from my understanding and how I see the matter at hand, I don't want to speak for other people.

  • DeadeyeDeadeye Member Posts: 3,620

    @Endstille Well, sorry on the guarantee one. I linked that to the guarantee that nurse killrate will go up again. My bad.

    But I will skip some passive-agressive comment about your school education

    Failed, I guess.

    And I was not about believeing no major mistakes were made or not. You assumed that your SWF performance, according to Omans, should cause a survivor nerf, based on statistics. Omans was not talking about statistics at all. And he did not "prove everything", it was an example to show she is still good, if you believe the survivors' performance. If you dont' then just say so and that this single game is probably not a valid example, but why insinuate that any statistics are prooved by a single game? And I don't know how many of his posts you already read, but your conclusions about his character seem to go a bit over the top for me.

    I get the points you mention afterwards, at least in general. I simply don't read it that hard from Omans post. I don't read a "git gud noob" but a "give it some time". The same type of complaints about nurse changes were on the forums before they even were released to the PTB. So how the hell can someone judge on the changes without being able to test them? So I get Omans point, although he is generalizing on nurse mains.

  • ScottJundScottJund Member Posts: 1,097
    edited November 2019

    Wait being a survivor main means youre asleep? What kind of Morpheus existential dumb ######### are you saying

  • UncannyLuckUncannyLuck Member Posts: 210

    Honestly this whole thread is why, despite enjoying the stats released by behavior, I don't blame them for not doing it. People will just complain that their stats don't fit their preconceived notions, which are based on personal experience.

  • UxoricideUxoricide Member Posts: 219

    Maybe the definition of Feedback will help you understand why people are sharing their own personal experiences:

    Feedback

    noun [ U ]

    information or statements of opinion about something, such as a new product, that can tell you if it is successful or liked:

    Have you had any feedback from customers about the new soap?

    positive/negative feedback

    On top of that developers have said over and over again that they appreciate hearing feedback, whether good or bad so not really sure what your goal is with your comment as each experience is personal.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 3,131

    Is it crying or just crying to have fun? What if prayer beads were fun for spirits? Is it against the law for killers to have fun? Why couldn't they make it ultra rare? I'm OK with the collision being gone but adding a vault animation means the killer shack just got a lot stronger for survivors, something that definitely didn't need to be. I'm not even a spirit main and I believe this is so.

    So the nurse...nurses didn't rely on omegablink and 4+ blinks. Again, they were often used because they were fun. The issue is they didn't have enough downside which I admit. They should have simply changed the addons so the range had more downside (like it is now) and that the extra blinks causes much greater fatigue when 3 and 4 blinks were used. 4 blinks could have been twice as long as it was. Seriously, you would have been kicked in the rear end for missing. If you are a motion sickness baby, don't use them, simple as that. To even get 3 blinks now, you can't blink through objects, it's equivalent to a brown addon, it's a joke and it'll never be used. Somehow Huntress and Clown can have an insta-down but nurse gets garbage ultra rares, go figure. Now for the nerfed 2 blinks with a cooldown. Why is survivors allowed to make mistakes but if nurse misses a blink or two she's lost the entire game? Against a gen rush team, you basically have to nail every single blink, and with dead hard that's 3 perfect blinks every single time. It's not even possible.

  • UncannyLuckUncannyLuck Member Posts: 210

    I think it would help if you actually read what I wrote. I'll try to summarize it again for you anyway though:

    I don't blame behavior for not releasing stats because people ignore them when they don't fit their expectations, rather than considering that their perspective may have been wrong or adjusting it based on the new evidence.

    None of what I said had anything to do with feedback.

  • yermomyermom Member Posts: 155

    I like this, a lot.

    I can't say I know this is the case, but I think the developers have to make use of the money they invest into content, and if Nurse is stronger, and getting more play that Freddy, which they just reworked, then they've invested their time poorly. So, nerf nurse, let Freddy shine.

    Although, this point might be dead in the water when considering the spirit changes; she was really expensive to make. Well, if she has received enough playtime to be considered a worthy investment? I don't know how we could figure that out.

    But, my point is mostly that, I believe there are metrics the devs use to change killers that they don't tell us about, because we wouldn't appreciate them as much as the devs do.

  • UxoricideUxoricide Member Posts: 219

    Let me try to rephrase, people sharing their personal experience is feedback, whether they are right or wrong is another question.

  • Ol_Philly_SixOl_Philly_Six Member Posts: 35

    Possibly because of how many challenges there are for trapper in the archives. I never played trapper before the archives but I've played him quite a lot trying to complete the challenges. He seemed pretty popular before, but I've seen waaaaaaaay more trappers since the archives launched.

  • UncannyLuckUncannyLuck Member Posts: 210

    That is entirely fair, and has nothing to do with what I wrote.

    I am not saying people can't or shouldn't share their personal experiences or give feedback (at least, here). I am saying that there's not much point in having stats if you're just going to ignore them or argue with them if they don't fit what you've experienced.

  • UxoricideUxoricide Member Posts: 219

    So arguing with stats that don't fit your personal experience is not feedback then?

  • KenshinKenshin Member Posts: 912

    what logic is this when you cant even pip with 2 kills? pls give me some of what you guys are smoking at work. and its not fun to only be able to get 2 kills. makes no sense brother.

  • UncannyLuckUncannyLuck Member Posts: 210

    I'm saying there's no use in having stats if that's all that happens, nor do I blame behavior for not releasing stats since that's all that happens.

  • No_Cluie_LouisNo_Cluie_Louis Member Posts: 1,091

    you've got, to take into account that some killers have a much larger learning curve, and so the stats will show them as worse than they actually are. This largely applies to nurse, but also slightly to billy and spirit. It even applies slightly at red ranks for killers who are only playing these killers for their daily

  • OmansOmans Member Posts: 1,003

    @Endstille This game's population is much bigger than your oh-so-amazing SWF team. That little bubble you've created for yourself, and the hive of nurse mains on these forums are the extent of people unhappy with her changes.

    I play on the Korean server. I don't even think I'm exaggerating when I say that something like 99+ percent of players on that server are happy with the nurse changes. It was a generally accepted truth there that nurse was broken. The most popular streamer in Korea only played her once a day because any more would be too hard on the survivors. But his viewers always asked to see nurse to see how broken a killer she was (full addons, no addons, whatever addons, it didn't matter). I've already mentioned his name many times that you've seen. You either haven't watched his nurse play (you can learn a lot) or are ignoring it because you don't want to accept the possibility that maybe it's not everyone else that's wrong, it's you....

    The rest of your character assassination attempt was a bit hard to follow so I'll just let it be. Next time link my name correctly though, so I can see you've said something! Wouldn't want to miss such heart-felt words!

    If you don't find nurse fun anymore, don't play her. You aren't getting old nurse back. For someone who claims to be so good at this game, always escaping with your tremendous SWF (that tournament game against the leatherface on Yamaoka looked SOOOOOO hard, very well played!!), you sure don’t have a good concept of balance.

    Many people think she is weak, when people with any knowledge of this game at the highest level know that she is still either at the same level as spirit or very close.

    Really, this whole nurse debate just boils down to 2 points: Is she still strong and capable of victory in any game? Yes.

    Is she 'fun'? I never found her fun. She gave easy victories. Now I've started playing her again. So maybe to you she isn't fun anymore, but I'm quite enjoying her now that she isn't so overbearing.

  • TheCrookedManTheCrookedMan Member Posts: 282

    There is no difference between console and PC as far as balance. I don't know why people are talking like there is. Because there isn't.

  • JohnofPAJohnofPA Member Posts: 12

    There's a lesson to be learned here. Statistics are useful, and they can give us insight into many things.

    A word of caution to this tale: for statistics to be useful it is important to understand what they are showing. For Nurse, in my opinion, it is clear that she has the absolute greatest potential to demolish a game. According to these stats she would be among the worse. But why this discrepancy? The statistics say all ranks. I would assume this includes both not so skilled nurses (who are not going to have a groovy time) and ok nurses going against competent survivors.

    The Trapper I would guess is getting picked solely because of his challenges because I personally haven't seen this many since his buff awhile back.

    TLDR: Always pay attention to what statistics showing, what data they are using, and any potential hidden variables that might be influencing what you're seeing.

  • gibblywibblywoogibblywibblywoo Member Posts: 3,773

    If I remember correctly Nurse always appeared low down on these charts due to the high percentage of players who were still trying to learn her. Beginner nurses get humiliated quite easily and she takes a good while to learn

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 3,131

    @Omans

    Was that the same korean streamer that used Omegablink every game? I went to his channel expecting slaughter every game, but I noticed some teams got down to 1 gen left and he had to camp and slug to win at the end, with Omegablink. Oopsie, for a killer with thousands of hours, I thought it was so ez he could down them all with 5 gens up. I see Huntress mains doing the same thing as he did with nurse.

  • Devil_hit11Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 2,683

    I'd take statistics with a little bit of grain of salt. Huntress has same kill-rate as Nurse and many players rate huntress very highly. Demogorgon shred is very similar to Huntress Hachets. The reason why those kill-rates are low is because those powers are hardest to master, so when you make a mistake with those killers, you get punished more severely than any other killer. I think there is also psychology factor being played here. Clown, Nurse, Huntress and Demogorgon are extremely 1vs1 oriented killers, so when survivors get destroyed in the chase, They end up playing the objective better, so more people end up escaping. Personally, I think kill-rates are higher than they should be because people don't try as hard as they could to push for a escape on weaker killers. If someone told you that Leatherface is a better killer then Nurse and Huntress, I think some people would think that your crazy, but that's kinda what the stats imply and it just doesn't feel like that in game. Don't let a number deceive you that you can't play better than what the average can play at. The game does leave room for skill and creativity to triumph over numbers.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246

    @Deadeye

    Appreciate your comment, all good.

    I used my swf as example to show that proof based upon a single game is not something that should be considered to validate something as good or bad. So I used this as an extreme conclusion like see we have this escape rate in the range of so and so that must mean using the logic he used nerf all survivors in the ground.

    I find both statements (with the diffrence mine not actually being serious) flawed due to the proof provided. This is why I keep track throughout this season and several other seasons to see where we end up in total.

    You know the problem with "good" as far as I recall what the nurse players actually do criticise is the fun factor of the nurse. This has been posted over and over again that the change to the basekit is not fun to play, good is taking out of the equation. That was never what the feedback from the players was about, can you still 4k? Yes, do you feel powerless? No. Do you have fun when you 4k? No. This right there is the most complained about.

    So why is it not longer fun as nurse? This has nothing to do with the addons of 3+ blinks / omega as stated most people agree this needed to go. So saying yeah you don't get ez 4k with omega anymore is completely missing the point that people criticise. Nurse used to be a pretty mobile killer even tho she always had a very low movementspeed, but you could blink. Nurse right now actually has a little less map pressure than any other 115% killer (basekit).

    This leads to the biggest problem, why play nurse? Nurse had the premise of learning a killer that requires mechanical skill, people devoted to it and got good, very good not all but some. The best ones would probably not use broken addons because they did not want to and dont need them.

    Now? You don't have any payoff for a killer that requires mechanical skill compared to other killers. There isn't enough of a benefit to be good with nurse anymore. So yeah why play nurse and give yourself a hard time due to every mistake being punished more severe than with any other killer.

    Hope that clears things up a bit more.

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