I really hope so! We need something new for Legion and Buffs for the other weaker Killers!
Bleh! I am having a hard time finding other Legion Ideas! Did the upcoming nerfs kill everyone's hope?
Does anyone else think Legion is being kept so bad as punishment for them being broken on release? I can't think of any other reason they are being treated this way. I think they should remove Deep Wound from Legion's power. That would make it 9879879879% earlier to fix.
o-o um... why is this not going to the top of the list anymore? @MandyTalk
Welp, As of the latest PTB, it seems the devs agreed with my assessment regarding their FF movement speed as they've given them their old movement and vaulting speed back. Testing this in the PTB gave me good feelings and helped their overall "Feel" when using FF, and although it didn't do much to increase their "threat", it did make chaining FF strikes a little easier to accomplish like I said it would. This was a good change for Legion, but unfortunately it was marred and completely ignored by another aspect the devs introduced in the PTB... The change to Beast of Prey, and addition of the new Oni perk Nemesis.
Honestly I tested BoP on Legion in the PTB to see if i could get the Undetectable status to activate so I could down survivors with DW. The problem with trying to down survivors this way was that I had to have an unbroken chase with the DW'd survivor for 15-20 seconds to after being stunned for 4 seconds coming out of FF to activate it, and maintain that chase for another 22.5 seconds (used Franks mix tape) without breaking pallets, losing the chase, or using FF, because doing any of those things immediately brought my TR back and paused the timer. I can see a really good Legion player accomplishing this, but that's still a 40+ second chase, where the killers target range for ending a chase should be under or around 20 seconds. Personally I didn't see it as a viable strategy at all, and if I FF'd again to knock the DW bar down more with FMT, that just added another 20+ seconds to the chase, and while it did ensure a down, it also was a colossal waste of time, and frustrating to make it work.
As for Nemesis... That one by comparison was much more useful. You DW the survivor, get blinded or stunned, and suddenly your TR is no longer pausing the timer for the next 45 seconds. You could actually pair it with the Enduring + Spirit Fury combo to ensure that if you didn't down them yourself, they were going to bleed out from DW. I've accomplished this scenario in the past similarly by using Dark Devotion, but the big difference between DD and Nemesis is that DD pauses the timer on the Obsession for 30 seconds while Nemesis ensured it would tick down. I haven't tried combo'ing DD+Nemesis, but if it works then it could be pretty nifty. Still, Legion with Nemesis had counter-play to it: Drop the pallet early without trying to stun Legion. Once survivors realized I had Nemesis, they did exactly that to keep DW from becoming a threat, and Nemesis only activated twice at most before they wised up and started using this counter-play strategy on me.
I wasn't able to test these as extensively as i normally would in the live build because wait times in the PTB were excruciating, and friends weren't always available to assist me in testing it. Now with the PTB closed, all we can do is wait until the live version to get a more thorough testing, but because tof the communities "over reaction" and outcries that the devs are "bringing old legion back", I get the feeling that either Legion or the perks will see a change before hitting the Live build. Its really a shame, because while the change to BoP and addition of Nemesis did make DW a threat again, they also have counter-play to them or were more of a waste of the killers time. I think the devs actually predicted this because they also shortened how long it takes to mend from 16 seconds to 12, and trust me, I had survivors mending every time they vaulted a pallet while i was attempting to get BoP to work since i couldn't break the pallet if i wanted to keep the BoP effect going, and that was a viable counter strategy. If the devs change these things from the PTB versions on a knee jerk reaction to the communities whining, then it'll only reassure my assumption that they don't give players gamer instincts enough credit.
and now an idea from @xllxENIGMAxllx
Remove the basic attack penalty from legion. I don't understand why you remove 50% of his power gauge when his power can't even kill.
Frank's mix tape is very bad for two reason.
Combined with reason 1 he takes approximatively 1m 20s to down someone it's simply just bad and isn't worth to even use.
You could fix it by first making the frenzy cooldown to start with the fatigue like nurse then, you reduce the hit required by 2. Which make two hits to down and 40s to down if no hits have been missed.
Make it so he increase feral frenzy movement speed by 0,2 m/s.
To solve once and for all the issues the DW can be exploited (moonwalk/no terror radius). Is to add a proximity radius. Proximity radius work like this.
Once you are in the proximity radius (close from the killer) the DW timer never go down no matter if he moonwalk or not / if he got a terror radius or not. Legion have a 32m terror radius so his proximity radius should be the same.
If you want Legion to be mid-tier i think you should buff and remove some change then buff the useless add-ons. Let's get started.
After seeing many post and Gameplay from the PTB Legion despise the speed changes and pins changes is still a low tier killer. Their Fatigue is still to long and probably the major factor that make them very weak, They also got gauge penalty after each basic attack which make no sense anymore. Legion can't kill anymore so he make no sense to punish them for a power that is literally NON-LETHAL.
The legion nerf you've made by counting the frenzy as special attack destroy many perk synergy. Legion is not in a good place to allow such a nerf. I do understand why you did this nerf is to reduce the annoying aspect of his power but is not a good choice. The mending time nerf is another aspect that make legion even weaker and once again you did that make his power even less of a threat and annoyance.
@Almo You really want to please the legion fan and make legion a good killer without being an annoyance and any broken mechanics these is the way to go.
Those change should make them mid-tier without making a broken killer like launch or the newly nemesis legion incoming.
Yeah man. I hate to say it but i'm losing faith in the Devs. I don't know what to feel about the changes to Legion with removing all the Perk Synergies with Feral Frenzy and all. I think that they need to remove Deep Wound from Feral Frenzy and add something else. Deep wound is what makes Feral Frenzy so hard to balance, IMO.
I'm not a mod, but I like the legion. These suggested changes are interesting.
So, i'm testing this for @Gay Myers (Luzi) to see if it bumps up now...
It seemed to have worked. It's up on my end.
It did! Thank you so much for that!
You got some interesting ideas friend. Full rework is gonna take years if that what's going to happen. I do think they can still save them but, they should listen when we are suggesting changes.
They keep trying to change them by their way they want. Issues here is that all they are doing only give them extra work at a later date. We try to save them those extra work.
Frenzy is a great power but devs is scared to make it too powerful due to old legion. Their increased speed from PTB is a good way to go. There is still some point to fix to make them good.
My idea to fix it is to reduce the hits required by 2 which make 3 hit to down (1 for DW effect and two down) These change make so he take 48s it's better but still bad anyway. As a rework he could be a movement speed increased during frenzy by 0,2 m/s (5%).
First reason is due to DW effect being too long (30s currently). Second reason is due to the timer not depleting in terror radius and while mending. So how to fix it ? i suggest first to reduce the deep wound timer to 15s and make so the add-on reduce the timer by 5s which make a total of 10s.
Simply revert the old version (Increased Movement Speed during Frenzy).
Note: As mentioned above Fuming Mix Tape is bad because of the cooldown and the fatigue and also maybe the movement speed on some maps. With the reduced fatigue and faster movement speed he will allow you to be aggresive on gens and could work very good with a gen protector build.
Note: The proximity radius is there to prevent any exploit (moonwalk , no terror radius). As a placeholder while a better solution is found to make DW more threatening without exploit.
Note 2: As explained there's two add-ons that affect deep wound timer (Frank's mix Tape and Stab Wound Study). Like explained SWS should reduce the timer by 5s as for FMT he is supposed to down in two hits make it so he reduce the timer by 5s per hit. If FMT is used alone he should reduce the timer by 7,5s (still down in two hits).
Thank you for your idea! I'll have to read through it for some feedback on it!
and now an idea from @ba_tetsuo !
Here's a set of changes I've been asking for since the original nerfs:
Since Legion is all about the rush of stabbing multiple people, while in FF give him a stacking MS bonus for each survivor hit. This bonus would be lost at the end of FF.
The MS bonus would apply to vaulting pallets and windows as well. Something like a + 0.1 or + 0.2 bonus per survivor hit.
Yea, 5.4/6/8 looks like a lot, but when you consider the amount of time each survivor has to run while you're going after the first 1 or 2, it still gives them plenty of time to get away.
Second, no one wants to look at the ground for 4 seconds while they're fatigued, so I suggest a 1.3 second stun at the end. When you math speeds out for how far you can travel while fatigued vs how far survivors can get, a 1.3 second stun gives the exact same numbers as a 4 second slow down.
I think these two changes would go a long way towards making legion a realistic threat again, without having to deal with the exploits from before.
and update to @AhoyWolf 's idea, in answer to some questions about there rework.
Sorry for not telling these sooner. :)
1) Yes they will, but it will only work on healthy Survivors. (To keep it balanced)
2) DWs last? If you mean how long it takes to put a Survivor into the dying state it will be like tier 2 BT so 15 seconds.
3) Yes! I have quite a few!
Every other addon will stay the same.
Honestly the more I think of it, the more I realize that Deep Wounds is what is holding Legion back. It's what makes Feral Frenzy so hard to balance and makes Legion either Broken in half or Useless. I think that the Devs should remove Deep Wound from Legion and replace it with something else.... with the best idea for that i've seen being Mob Mentality by Mong.@Peanits What do you think? Good idea?
What happened to Janick's Idea here? It was a good one. What happened to Janick for that matter? Didn't he make Legion? Did they fire him for that? O_o
As far as the Mob Mentality idea, do you worry about the implications of:
1) Deep Wound applying stackable reductions to healing, making it potentially a fair bit harder to remove the Deep Wound?
2? The "4 Deep Wounds to down a Survivor" aspect creating a similar situation to original Legion where there is too much inevitability and not enough counterplay (FF, apply two stacks, FF, apply a third stack, FF, apply a fourth stack and down)?
Of the ideas I see listed, I think the Mob Mentality idea (with the variation suggested by @pemberley ) is my favorite.
This is part of why I think Deep Wounds should just be removed from Legion's power. It makes it all too hard to balance.
Though remember. Mending is somehow not "Healing."
I think if you remove the "Deep Wounds stacks eventually down someone" bit from the Mob Mentality idea and just make Feral Frenzy hits inflict action speed penalties, that gets rid of the part of the Legion that is most difficult to balance.
Yeah, that might be true too.
Awesome! I'm glad you like the idea.
As for your questions:
1. I did the math (took data from deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com) and made sure the stall potential is reduced.
So right now, it takes 12 seconds to mend and 16 seconds to heal (with a standard medkit), so it takes you 28 seconds total after being hit with Feral Frenzy to get back to full health. With my proposed 20 percent action speed reduction, you can start healing immediately so it would take you 19.2 seconds to get back to full health.
If you stack Filthy Blade and Nasty Blade, currently they add 4 seconds to mend so 16 seconds (mend) + 16 seconds (heal) so 32 seconds. If you stack them with my proposed change, resulting in a 35 percent action speed reduction, it would take 21.6 seconds.
Also, you can get your unaffected teammates to heal you and then there is no penalty.
That being said, if this is still too much stall and annoying to go against, the action speed penalties can be reduced or NB and FB can be reworked.
2. In my opinion, it would be OK to bring this aspect back now because Legion has a much higher cooldown for Feral Frenzy, can't see blood in FF and is taken out of his power if he whiffs so there is enough counterplay and time inefficiency for Legion that it shouldn't be a problem.
@Almo @Peanits @not_Queen @MandyTalk @Gay Myers (Luzi)
I can't believe you did it. Good job. You have successfully made me lose all faith in BHVR and any hope that you listened to your community. All of this feed back and what do we get? The Deep Wound Changes... the Legion getting all that taken from them with just some movement speed to try and make up for it... even the Oni nerf in a small way, since you gave him no time to settle in like you said you would. I no longer want to play. I no longer want to support this game at all. Giving Legion the movement speed while removing all threat of Deep Wound... what? Are we supposed to be happy cause "At least it's something"? All these "Buffs" are just nerfs you slapped on Legion for no reason and are reverting. Survivors can get hit with Feral Frenzy and just run around. Something that is supposed to be them bleeding out... and they can run around no problem. You make Legion even weaker, cause none of you know how to handle their power or the Deep Wound mechanic which was flawed to begin with. You couldn't just replace Deep Wound. No, you just made Legion's power literally a punishment. So yea.... You did it. You made me give up. Congratulations.
Just remove Deep wounds from Legion if it's so darn hard to balance.
Since they want to cremate Legion with burning them when they were already Dead.
Rework for Legion. The ashes of the Legion form together into one body. The Legion has the power to leave copies of themselves (A ashen version of the former Legion member) as traps. These traps set Survivors on fire, making them scream and lose a health state. Feral Frenzy is replaced with "Ashen Advance" Where the ashes flow into the Fog, speeding across the Trial to converge on the closest Survivor.
Devs at this stage you honestly have three suggestions you could take to effectively fix Legion.
Suggestion number 1:
This is probably the most preferable to most people who mainly Legion. Keep the fast speed, killer instinct, chain hits and the vaulting aspect of Legion but replace deep wounds with another status condition because you guys legitimately cannot properly balance it.
Any time you try to balance deep wounds it ends up having a knock on effect which nerfs Legion and buffs borrowed time and styptic agent.
Once you implement a different status condition it would be a lot easier for you guys to effectively balance their kit so even though they're power is not lethal it can at least contest with Lethal abilities. Because in its current state frenzy really doesn't do much but waste both The Legion and survivors' time
Suggestion number 2:( Personally I'm not a fan of this because I do enjoy the vaulting and the stabbing but at this stage it might be necessary)
Rework Legion from scratch give them a completely different power. Give them an ability that has lethality so they can can contest with other Killers.
There have been multiple suggestions for a completely different power for Legion most of which are in this thread. Ranging from focusing on Legion having a group-based ability to others amazing ideas.
Suggestion number 3:
Increase the effectiveness of the frenzy aspects besides deep wounds. In its current state does not do enough for it to warrant the immense amount of downsides that Legion's kit brings to them.
So if you want to continue having deep wounds be attached to Legion without changing the affliction or completely reworking the power then please and minimise these downsides.
1) 4 seconds stun being probably the biggest contender. Revert it back to 3 seconds even if you have to change the add-ons to compensate
2) Reducing the limit on the tracking capabilities without the ability to do the moonwalk exploit anymore and frenzy having no real lethal capabilities there's no need to have blood or scratch marks be blocked from the Legion
3) power depletion once again frenzy doesn't really have any lethal potential so having your power completely depleted on a missed swing is stupid. Either have the ability just get cancelled out but you keep your current progression or revert the missed hit effects.
4) This goes hand in hand with the problem above but having to wait roughly 20 seconds to get your power back on something that is not lethal is ridiculous. It's not a blink or phasing where I can actually down people so why do I have to wait so so long between uses is beyond me. It also makes using the power as a traversal tool absolutely terrible.
5) final point for this suggestion but for the love of God rework the add-ons.
Franks mixtape and stab wounds study have literally become way more useless than they were before.
If you have fuming mixtape you're punished for actually using your ability.
The killer instinct detection range add-ons suck please change them back to speed.
Pins you guys did a good job with this but can you please increase the duration of these add-ons cause currently there pitiful. Especially considering you've taken synergy out of frenzy when it comes to perks like sloppy Butcher or third seal which did these jobs better.
We are Legion
There are 2 other husks on the board that are hollow. When ability is activated take control of one of the husks and leave your husk behind. 30 second cool-down. Husks have original killer terror radius terror radius. Husks do not have collision.
could add up to 2 more husks
shorten cool down
increase terror radius
115 movement 24 m terror
This gives him strategic play and makes it feel like there are more killers on the board but there is only 1.
While the reverted nerfs are welcome on Legion , the deep wound nerf makes Legion even more of a joke . The main problem right now is that there is no difference for Legion between chasing an injured survivor, or chasing a survivor with deep wound on. the power itself serves no purpose in the chase once the survivor is not healthy. In SOME cases , sometimes you will inflict deep wound on an injurd survivor for the detection ability, but this is rare, usually you will, like all killers, want to chase down the person you inflicted deep wound on , especially if killer istinct is not revealing anyone near. then you have to stun yourself for 4 seconds (3 seconds base was fine btw) before starting the chase again. And like I said, once the chase restarts there is no difference for Legion between chasing an injured survivor and a survivor with deep wound active. You just have to be a m1 killer (albeit one with a 4 second stun between the first hit and being able to chase again) and eat every pallet, every vault like a m1 killer, which is NOT fun.
If you at BHVR hate the deep wound mechanic on Legion, I do agree it could be replaced with a debuff, and I'll even be more precise : it should be replaced by a debuff that MATTERS in a chase, such that Legion has incentive to use his power on injured survivors , which is NOT the case right now , right now if you stab an injured survivor with deep wound and nothing shows up in killer istinct, congratulations you just offered the survivor 4 seconds of free distance from you, because you have to stun yourself for those 4 whole seconds to restart the chase and actually be threatening to the survivor now. (and IF you want to go stab someone else ? Then the survivor you were chasing wins the chase, and you just gave up a lot of time for maybe another chase where this will happen all over again) Deep Wound right now is not a threat, which makes no sense for the killer. you have to suffer some kind of penalty that matters in a chase if you have deep wound, else why even bother with it once survivors start to work on gens while injured ?
On the subject of add-ons now :
I hope someone from BHVR read this post to the end, and if you could tell me that I did not write this huge wall of text for nothing , even a simple "I read this post" would be really nice to me. I'm really hoping this helps.