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Dramatic but this is how I feel now...

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  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Hey man, I'm just trying to suggest productive solutions here. If a killer main doesn't enjoy playing Legion anymore, there are plenty of other options with different playstyles. There are low-tier options like Doctor, mid-tier options like Myers, and high-tier options like Spirit. I'm not going to judge Legion mains if they decide to main Spirit now. I'd just say to the devs that Spirit needs more work (Assuming these upcoming nerfs aren't enough).

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Changes do not equal gutting of a class. I bet at first you were pretty pissy about the changes, no matter what you say. You saying you didn't use those perks just kinda underlines it. You kinda just tossed out meta things and admitted you don't understand the changes. Cause the Movement speed buff wasn't near the only thing in it. I don't mean this rudely, but it's right there. This isn't an "Overall improvement to the character." at all and I am looking at the bigger picture, which is the Devs tossing Legion into a wood chipper, and you will never convince me otherwise.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Also did you even see my reply to why I mained Legion? You just saying "Go to someone else, and oh i'll tell them to nerf Spirit too." just makes you seem like an ass.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246

    @Monlyth

    What? Stbfl with 8 tokens makes the usage of ff utterly obsolete and legion able to down people very fast and end chases so quickly compared to without it, injured survivors grouping up is slugalore with that.

  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 702

    Btw, all the commotion and hes a lil bit better thanbefore tho. Really, people should stop complain for nothing and if necessary give feedback after a thorough playthrough. As I see this is just a pointless rant, and this is not what the community needs. The community of this game is so toxic toward devs its ridiculous, maybe they listen too much and get bullied back

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    No, I really wasn't pissy about the Warlock changes. From the first moment they revealed the new, reworked playstyle for Demonology, I was excited to explore it. Were there some things I missed about the old playstyle? Yes. Did I complain about the changes? No, not once.

    Also, why are you saying that I don't understand the changes or the meta? My Legion build is full of meta perks. I could drop Thanatophobia for another meta perk if need be, and it wouldn't have to be Sloppy Butcher or STBFL.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Whatever. I wish you good games. I've tried and tried to explain this, so we will just have to stay on different pages.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    But the survivors will all be injured long before you get 8 tokens, and it doesn't make a difference in a chase if the survivor is already injured when the chase starts. I can think of plenty of other good uses for that perk slot. If you're looking to punish injured survivors grouping up, you could always use Nurse's Calling for the same effect without needing to farm tokens or avoid the obsession.

  • silverwolf4455silverwolf4455 Member Posts: 475

    Legion was already running around hitting people with a wooden spoon. Now they took that spoon and gave him a nerf bat. R.i.p Legion

  • OmegaXIIOmegaXII Member Posts: 1,602

    i'm not criticize you, i'm just stating my concern.

    at the end of the day, we want to see all killers in high ranks, right? so buffing legion is needed, not nerfing him to a state where legion mains will also choose to dump their main. same goes for nurse though (I dumped her after the nerf because her power is not fun at all, although i'm not a nurse main)

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Burns even more cause of all the effort I put into my threads in Feedback. Just to realize that was pointless too.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Yes, all killers should be present in high ranks, but I don't think we should accomplish that by bringing every killer up to Spirit's level. I think that would have the side effect of making all the survivors quit.

    To be honest, I'm a little hesitant to say we should buff killers at all, mostly because Killers are all doing fairly well, according to BHVR's stats. If all Killers already have a kill rate of 60% or more in the red ranks, I'd hesitate to say we should buff them. High-ranking killers complain a lot about survivors, yet they still manage to do well against even the best of them?

    So, it's possible that the issue lies with the emblem system (Which would skew the statistics to make killers look good, since it's harder to rank up as a Killer than a Survivor), or it's possible that the issue lies somewhere else. Either way, I'm not sure that buffing all the killers is the best idea when we don't know all the facts. Why killers complain a lot about survivors at red ranks, yet killers are dominating the red ranks according to statistics.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    I'mma take it you didn't read my reply to why I main'ed Legion? Also BHVR Devs have said not to use the stats to draw Conclusions, making your argument here flawed. Also anything 51% to 74% is still 2 kills,. which at high ranks is a Black pip or worse.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 3,108

    I wouldn't blame the community managers for you losing faith since it's their job to support their company over this community. I understand your concerns since they literally nitpick what they want to reply to and what they don't.

    Personally I think they need to be more open with their community which won't happen anytime soon. Also would be nice if they used the polls section to discuss changes and see peoples feedback on.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    Once again, that was to get them to SEE it so they could TELL THE DEVS. I am not blaming Community Managers. I am blaming the Devs.

  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 702

    I read everything, and that is the outcome. anyway you just ignored the main issue, the behaviour towards devs, but its okay.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Once again, sorry for being upset my favorite Killer was gutted and strung up on my porch like a warning from the Mob. I have a right to tell the Devs how I feel.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507
    edited December 2019

    Of course I read your reply on why you mained Legion. I quoted it.

    You seem to have this notion that the devs are obligated to act upon your feedback, and incorporate your ideas into their reworks. Trust me when I say: The sooner you let go of this notion, the better it will be for your mental health. When you don't get fussy just because the devs didn't do exactly what you wanted, you'll often be pleasantly surprised by what the devs managed to come up with.

    Good game design is nowhere near as easy as it seems. It takes a lot of brainstorming, a lot of designing, a lot of iteration, and a lot of trial and error to create a well-designed game, mechanic, or character. There are a multitude of factors to consider before you implement any given mechanic or make any given change, many of which are not obvious to the player who actually uses and interacts with the mechanic. And after you're done brainstorming, you usually need to test again and again. Assess your changes and decide whether or not they're accomplishing what they're meant to accomplish, and if they make the game more fun to play. And you'll often have to go back to the drawing board many times before you get something that really works. When you don't do that and try to rush the process, you end up with messy games like Mass Effect Andromeda, and Anthem.

    If I had to bet, I'd say that BHVR has been spending a long time brainstorming ideas on how best to fix Legion's issues, but they've had other tasks to do that were just as important (Like designing new characters, making balance changes and reworking other characters, i.e. The Doctor), and they simply haven't come up with an adequate solution yet. Reworks take a long time. In the meantime, it seems they've decided to help him out by buffing his add-ons and buffing FF, while changing the way his power interacts with certain perks.

    Why did they do the last change? I couldn't tell you the exact reason. Maybe they wanted to change it for the sake of consistency (Because Shred and chainsaws and hatchets and such don't count as a Basic Attack either), maybe they wanted to remove Sloppy Butcher in order to make way for his new Button add-ons. Either way, instead of getting upset, I choose to welcome the changes and continue giving feedback on what I like and don't like about him, so that things can continue to get better for Legion.

    I've heard this consistently from a lot of game designers (Specifically, Mark Rosewater, the lead designer for Magic: The Gathering): "Your audience is good at identifying problems, and bad at solving them". It's rare for your audience to see the bigger picture and understand all of the factors that need to be considered when designing something. They can tell you when something is wrong, but they often have trouble figuring out how to make it right. Lots of players might love one suggested change, but lots of others (The silent majority) would hate it. Always be careful before you implement fan-suggested changes.

    For an example of good game design, I consider the change to Deep Wounds (Making it so it doesn't interact with the Terror Radius anymore, and ticks down anytime you're not sprinting or Mending) to be a well-thought-out change, because it addresses one of the common complaints about the mechanic (That it can be exploited by abilities and perks that remove the Terror Radius) without significantly reducing or increasing its overall power, or changing what the mechanic is intended to do. This change allows the developers to implement more mechanics that remove the Terror Radius (Which they clearly wanted to do with this patch), without worrying that they'll break the game with Deep Wounds.

    Post edited by Monlyth on
  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    Are you a game designer? No. Should I expect a company to listen to the feedback of most of there community? Yes. I don't expect them to listen to ME but when most of the community is at arms cause Legion, who was widely considered the worst Killer, got nerfed even further... Don't you think they should listen?

    Just cause I shouldn't get "Fussy" or anything like that doesn't stop the human reaction of getting upset over something that makes no sense to me and is seen as widely unneeded. Maybe if they explained anything it would be better. Also WHY EVEN HAVE THESE FORUMS IF NOT TO LISTEN TO FEEDBACK?! The community has spend a long time brain storming Ideas too, I have two threads in Feedback that show that, let alone the billions of other threads. Good Job dismissing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! You act like game designers are on some lofty cloud that they can't be touched by the poor, dirty masses that play there game.

    IF BHVR has been "Brainstorming for a long time' They are really not showing it with releasing Nemesis and changing some perks, then going "Oh [BAD WORD] that broke Legion." and then nerfing them into the ground.

    This is a messy game just like the ones you mentioned. Basement bug is the newest example of that and so are the myriad of other bugs and problem on PC alone, not even counting Console.

    Have you looked at the add-on changes? Have you? The only changes even worth noting are the pins getting changes and the Filthy Blade getting nerfed. The other changes are not even a second of difference. I should be HAPPY that i get .2 M/S while losing a million perks I could use? I should be happy that my power does even less now? Oh goody, I can vault this window .2 seconds faster! That makes up for the fact I LITERALLY GET PUNISHED FOR USING MY POWER!

    You are in denial if you think that this whole community pointing out the issues with this nerf and Legion as a whole is wrong. "Good at identifying problems and bad at solving them?" Cool, then your opinion is worthless too! This change to Deep Wound is NOT good game design in the slightest, and I honestly hope you are joking somehow. BHVR has done many moves that make players wonder if they even play there own game and then you come singing there praises like they are Lords of game design for an obviously terrible change? They should have just removed Deep wounds from Legion and replaced it, not gutted an already weak Killer.

    Oh and in case you haven't figured it out yet. I AM JUST AS ENTITLED TO GIVE FEED BACK AS YOU! This is my feedback. This change made me lose faith in BHVR as a company, and the Devs in it as a whole. Literally nothing you can say in your condescending way will ever change my mind.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Well, that's the thing. A large portion of the community considers this to be a buff, not a nerf. And a large portion of the community didn't consider Legion to be the worst killer. A lot of people consider Leatherface, Clown and/or Wraith to be worse. You seem to be making the classic mistake of believing that most people think the same way you do.

    They are listening to feedback. Feedback clearly factors heavily into many of their decisions, like the decision to change how Deep Wounds interacts with the Terror Radius, or the decision to reduce the difficulty of the Tome challenges. But, again, you seem to have this notion that because they didn't do exactly what you wanted them to do, it was a bad change.

    Feedback is always valuable, but if you expect them to always act upon your feedback and give you the exact changes you wanted, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. And if you expect them to act upon your feedback when you spew hyperbole and make an "I quit" post every time things don't go just the way you wanted them to, don't be surprised when the developers get reluctant to take you seriously.

    When you view even the slightest nerf as "Getting gutted/nerfed to the ground", even when they give the character several buffs in many other areas, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get upset. And it tells the developers that nothing will satisfy you, short of breaking the game to favor you exclusively. Be honest, would you have ever been happy with anything but buffs? Would you be happy with buffs if they weren't the exact buffs you wanted? It certainly doesn't seem that way.

    And do you really know what you're asking for when you say that they need to remove Deep Wounds entirely, and create a whole new mechanic exclusive to Legion? As I said before, reworks take a long time. Months, at the bare minimum. The Freddy rework took almost two years. If you want changes to happen immediately, then you'll have to be satisfied with small tweaks.

    Do you know what it looks like when the developers listen to player feedback more than their own intuition and knowledge? It looks like the current mobile gaming market. Everyone just does whatever will get them the highest rating on the app store, and whatever gets them the highest survey scores. Nobody tries anything new, nobody cares about making a quality product, everyone copies everyone else, every game plays the same way, and great games essentially don't exist. Finding even a halfway decent title on the app store (Which isn't just a port of an old game, mind you) is like finding a needle in a haystack.

    But at any rate, you're really starting to take an aggressive tone again, so I'm not going to indulge your emotional outbursts any longer. My advice still stands: The sooner you accept that nerfs and buffs come and go, and you're not always going to get the exact changes you want, the better off you'll be mentally. Grow some backbone. Embrace change.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 3,108

    Apologies but before you edited it that's how it sounded.

    They need to be more vocal with their community on why certain things are done to stop threads like this. They are causing their own community to argue with itself because they won't give some explanations on why they are doing certain things.

    On a side note you need to chill for a minute. Ino your not happy with the changes but trust me getting angry on the forums won't help in anyway. We've all been there with this game but it's better to step back and take a break rather than argue with other community members.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    We agreed to disagree like 3 pages ago. Go away if all you are gonna do is continue to try and call me a wuss. I don't want them to only listen to me. I want them to listen to the community, which they clearly arn't.

    This is the first time i've ever made a post like this, so "Make an I quit post every time" Doesn't apply to me. I'm done discussing this with you. You think i'm some arrogant git that wants everything my way or I will throw a tantrum, and I think you are a condescending fool. So Let's just stop this now before it gets worse.

    Also judging by the amount of threads saying "Why did you do this to Legion Devs?" and "Legion is Dead." and etc, you are obviously wrong that "Most of the community thinks it's a buff." Most would be the ones that don't even play Legion and the very popularity of this thread and my rework ideas threads show that everyone knows Legion is in a bad spot and was made worse.

    Also good job making a whole post based on a completely false view of me, when you don't even know me or want to understand my motives.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    Thank you! Even with the speed the stun makes even traversal with Legion's power is bad in alot of cases.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    Thank you for supporting me in this too. "Slapped in the face." sums up some of my feeling on this.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Honestly though, compared to most big developers, BHVR's communication has been consistently good. The simple fact that they reply to forum threads almost every day puts them miles ahead of most of their competition.

    That being said, developers always have to be careful not to spend too much time talking to their community about their plans and updates, because talking about doing something is not the same as doing it. If they took the time to explain every little change in this update, that alone could take several hours out of many of the devs' work days, and cause a significant delay for their development. Remember, the devs all have a life outside of work, so they have a limited amount of time each day to work on projects, discuss things with their coworkers, and reply to the community's posts.

    If you choose to continue talking with me, I have the right to continue talking with you. If you dismiss all of my arguments as mere insults, that's your prerogative, but again, don't be surprised when the devs aren't swayed by simple outrage. I think you'd be a lot more convincing if you took the time to chill out and sort out all of your thoughts on this matter.

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