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Dramatic but this is how I feel now...

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  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Because I enjoyed running around and slashing all the survivors. Cause I could connect with the Killer in a way cause of there lore. I grew up in a town alot like the one in the lore, I could see others going down that path. This path the Devs are taking with Legion just shows me how pointless it is to try and ask them anything or talk to them about anything. They don't care, so why should I? I left this game after 2016-2017 era and Legion got me back. I have a connection with this Killer and now they have been gutted. I used to feel like I could do something with them, but now... with all these nerfs and these "Buffs" that do nothing to make up for it.... there's no point. I'm glad you can still enjoy them, and I give you the blessing of the Legion on your games... but at this point, that's like calling a curse down on you more than anything. I'll give you that the new speed and all feels nice... but it in no way makes up for the negatives.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Why would you ever hit a survivor twice just to apply the Blindness effect? You're giving them a free speed boost and extending the chase much longer than you have to, while still losing the Frenzy and suffering the 4 second cooldown. I can't think of a single scenario where it's worth it. Hence why I had 20+ unused Smiley Face Pins in my inventory.

    If the survivors spread out enough that KI doesn't highlight anyone else, then you say "Oh well, at least I know there aren't any other survivors around here", end the Frenzy, and continue the chase normally. Not every add-on is useful in every situation. Just ask Demogorgon or Myers. It's still better than an add-on that literally encourages you to make a misplay.

  • Divine_ConfettiDivine_Confetti Member Posts: 1,750

    I tend to agree on both accounts. All I'm saying is that there is a point to using their power, however small the advantage to using it is.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246

    @Monlyth

    Oh and don't underestimate clown with the few useful addon combos that he has he can actually be very good. But I doubt that many people care how to play him at all. Clown even has an instadown that is stuff that legion can only dream of.

  • Divine_ConfettiDivine_Confetti Member Posts: 1,750
    edited December 2019

    @Kabu

    I'm also going to hit you with: since when have survivors who don't use self-care ever been afraid of E: 3 extra seconds IIRC, even worse than I thought of added healing from sloppy, or a few extra seconds of mending against Legion?

    Anti-heal has been proven to be ineffective against the best survivors, specifically the ones that can loop you for 5 gens while injured. But we're not always going to be facing the best survivors. People make mistakes.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246


    To get stacks on perks such as stbfl? Just to explain this is 3 tokens with a single survivor, you would get those tokens very fast on legion. Having 6/8 tokens on stbfl makes him way more lethal than anything you get right now in return.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507
    edited December 2019

    Well, speaking as somebody who's seen nerfs and buffs come and go many times over the years (I was a Demonology Warlock main in WoW; I absolutely loved the fantasy, but my chosen specialization was usually the weakest, and I was often pigeonholed into playing specs I disliked. When buffs finally came for Demonology, I was happy and did quite well in my guild. I loved being the resident Warlock expert. Then they reworked Demonology. Yet... I was okay with it. It was a totally different playstyle, yet it still had everything I loved about Warlocks: summoning demons, applying debuffs, slowly whittling away your opponent's health to nothing. And I was still the resident Warlock for many months until the guild broke up), I've grown to tolerate change. Even when it's not perfect, and not exactly what I wanted. I look at the bigger picture, and I don't get fussy if the changes were an overall improvement to the character.

    Also, side note: I never used Sloppy Butcher or other M1 perks on Legion. My pre-patch build was BBQ & Chili, Ruin, Monitor and Abuse, and Thana. So this patch changed almost nothing about Legion for me personally, except the speed buffs.

    I don't really understand this argument, because survivors will usually stay injured against Legion, making STBFL's effect redundant.

  • KabuKabu Member Posts: 926

    They weren't afraid of those perks. Legion was crap even when he benefited from them. We are in agreement here. It just sucks to lose even that.


    We keep trying to make Legion work even after all these nerfs. Those perks were one of the last few things left. This patch made them speedy again and get even easier first hits but so do a lot of other killers who either do it better or can get downs easier.


    Thanks for trying and if you enjoy this iteration of Legion then awesome. I'm glad someone does.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Hey man, I'm just trying to suggest productive solutions here. If a killer main doesn't enjoy playing Legion anymore, there are plenty of other options with different playstyles. There are low-tier options like Doctor, mid-tier options like Myers, and high-tier options like Spirit. I'm not going to judge Legion mains if they decide to main Spirit now. I'd just say to the devs that Spirit needs more work (Assuming these upcoming nerfs aren't enough).

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Changes do not equal gutting of a class. I bet at first you were pretty pissy about the changes, no matter what you say. You saying you didn't use those perks just kinda underlines it. You kinda just tossed out meta things and admitted you don't understand the changes. Cause the Movement speed buff wasn't near the only thing in it. I don't mean this rudely, but it's right there. This isn't an "Overall improvement to the character." at all and I am looking at the bigger picture, which is the Devs tossing Legion into a wood chipper, and you will never convince me otherwise.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Also did you even see my reply to why I mained Legion? You just saying "Go to someone else, and oh i'll tell them to nerf Spirit too." just makes you seem like an ass.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246

    @Monlyth

    What? Stbfl with 8 tokens makes the usage of ff utterly obsolete and legion able to down people very fast and end chases so quickly compared to without it, injured survivors grouping up is slugalore with that.

  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 702

    Btw, all the commotion and hes a lil bit better thanbefore tho. Really, people should stop complain for nothing and if necessary give feedback after a thorough playthrough. As I see this is just a pointless rant, and this is not what the community needs. The community of this game is so toxic toward devs its ridiculous, maybe they listen too much and get bullied back

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    No, I really wasn't pissy about the Warlock changes. From the first moment they revealed the new, reworked playstyle for Demonology, I was excited to explore it. Were there some things I missed about the old playstyle? Yes. Did I complain about the changes? No, not once.

    Also, why are you saying that I don't understand the changes or the meta? My Legion build is full of meta perks. I could drop Thanatophobia for another meta perk if need be, and it wouldn't have to be Sloppy Butcher or STBFL.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Whatever. I wish you good games. I've tried and tried to explain this, so we will just have to stay on different pages.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    But the survivors will all be injured long before you get 8 tokens, and it doesn't make a difference in a chase if the survivor is already injured when the chase starts. I can think of plenty of other good uses for that perk slot. If you're looking to punish injured survivors grouping up, you could always use Nurse's Calling for the same effect without needing to farm tokens or avoid the obsession.

  • silverwolf4455silverwolf4455 Member Posts: 475

    Legion was already running around hitting people with a wooden spoon. Now they took that spoon and gave him a nerf bat. R.i.p Legion

  • OmegaXIIOmegaXII Member Posts: 1,572

    i'm not criticize you, i'm just stating my concern.

    at the end of the day, we want to see all killers in high ranks, right? so buffing legion is needed, not nerfing him to a state where legion mains will also choose to dump their main. same goes for nurse though (I dumped her after the nerf because her power is not fun at all, although i'm not a nurse main)

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Burns even more cause of all the effort I put into my threads in Feedback. Just to realize that was pointless too.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Yes, all killers should be present in high ranks, but I don't think we should accomplish that by bringing every killer up to Spirit's level. I think that would have the side effect of making all the survivors quit.

    To be honest, I'm a little hesitant to say we should buff killers at all, mostly because Killers are all doing fairly well, according to BHVR's stats. If all Killers already have a kill rate of 60% or more in the red ranks, I'd hesitate to say we should buff them. High-ranking killers complain a lot about survivors, yet they still manage to do well against even the best of them?

    So, it's possible that the issue lies with the emblem system (Which would skew the statistics to make killers look good, since it's harder to rank up as a Killer than a Survivor), or it's possible that the issue lies somewhere else. Either way, I'm not sure that buffing all the killers is the best idea when we don't know all the facts. Why killers complain a lot about survivors at red ranks, yet killers are dominating the red ranks according to statistics.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    I'mma take it you didn't read my reply to why I main'ed Legion? Also BHVR Devs have said not to use the stats to draw Conclusions, making your argument here flawed. Also anything 51% to 74% is still 2 kills,. which at high ranks is a Black pip or worse.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 2,800

    I wouldn't blame the community managers for you losing faith since it's their job to support their company over this community. I understand your concerns since they literally nitpick what they want to reply to and what they don't.

    Personally I think they need to be more open with their community which won't happen anytime soon. Also would be nice if they used the polls section to discuss changes and see peoples feedback on.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    Once again, that was to get them to SEE it so they could TELL THE DEVS. I am not blaming Community Managers. I am blaming the Devs.

  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 702

    I read everything, and that is the outcome. anyway you just ignored the main issue, the behaviour towards devs, but its okay.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Once again, sorry for being upset my favorite Killer was gutted and strung up on my porch like a warning from the Mob. I have a right to tell the Devs how I feel.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507
    edited December 2019

    Of course I read your reply on why you mained Legion. I quoted it.

    You seem to have this notion that the devs are obligated to act upon your feedback, and incorporate your ideas into their reworks. Trust me when I say: The sooner you let go of this notion, the better it will be for your mental health. When you don't get fussy just because the devs didn't do exactly what you wanted, you'll often be pleasantly surprised by what the devs managed to come up with.

    Good game design is nowhere near as easy as it seems. It takes a lot of brainstorming, a lot of designing, a lot of iteration, and a lot of trial and error to create a well-designed game, mechanic, or character. There are a multitude of factors to consider before you implement any given mechanic or make any given change, many of which are not obvious to the player who actually uses and interacts with the mechanic. And after you're done brainstorming, you usually need to test again and again. Assess your changes and decide whether or not they're accomplishing what they're meant to accomplish, and if they make the game more fun to play. And you'll often have to go back to the drawing board many times before you get something that really works. When you don't do that and try to rush the process, you end up with messy games like Mass Effect Andromeda, and Anthem.

    If I had to bet, I'd say that BHVR has been spending a long time brainstorming ideas on how best to fix Legion's issues, but they've had other tasks to do that were just as important (Like designing new characters, making balance changes and reworking other characters, i.e. The Doctor), and they simply haven't come up with an adequate solution yet. Reworks take a long time. In the meantime, it seems they've decided to help him out by buffing his add-ons and buffing FF, while changing the way his power interacts with certain perks.

    Why did they do the last change? I couldn't tell you the exact reason. Maybe they wanted to change it for the sake of consistency (Because Shred and chainsaws and hatchets and such don't count as a Basic Attack either), maybe they wanted to remove Sloppy Butcher in order to make way for his new Button add-ons. Either way, instead of getting upset, I choose to welcome the changes and continue giving feedback on what I like and don't like about him, so that things can continue to get better for Legion.

    I've heard this consistently from a lot of game designers (Specifically, Mark Rosewater, the lead designer for Magic: The Gathering): "Your audience is good at identifying problems, and bad at solving them". It's rare for your audience to see the bigger picture and understand all of the factors that need to be considered when designing something. They can tell you when something is wrong, but they often have trouble figuring out how to make it right. Lots of players might love one suggested change, but lots of others (The silent majority) would hate it. Always be careful before you implement fan-suggested changes.

    For an example of good game design, I consider the change to Deep Wounds (Making it so it doesn't interact with the Terror Radius anymore, and ticks down anytime you're not sprinting or Mending) to be a well-thought-out change, because it addresses one of the common complaints about the mechanic (That it can be exploited by abilities and perks that remove the Terror Radius) without significantly reducing or increasing its overall power, or changing what the mechanic is intended to do. This change allows the developers to implement more mechanics that remove the Terror Radius (Which they clearly wanted to do with this patch), without worrying that they'll break the game with Deep Wounds.

    Post edited by Monlyth on
  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    Are you a game designer? No. Should I expect a company to listen to the feedback of most of there community? Yes. I don't expect them to listen to ME but when most of the community is at arms cause Legion, who was widely considered the worst Killer, got nerfed even further... Don't you think they should listen?

    Just cause I shouldn't get "Fussy" or anything like that doesn't stop the human reaction of getting upset over something that makes no sense to me and is seen as widely unneeded. Maybe if they explained anything it would be better. Also WHY EVEN HAVE THESE FORUMS IF NOT TO LISTEN TO FEEDBACK?! The community has spend a long time brain storming Ideas too, I have two threads in Feedback that show that, let alone the billions of other threads. Good Job dismissing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! You act like game designers are on some lofty cloud that they can't be touched by the poor, dirty masses that play there game.

    IF BHVR has been "Brainstorming for a long time' They are really not showing it with releasing Nemesis and changing some perks, then going "Oh [BAD WORD] that broke Legion." and then nerfing them into the ground.

    This is a messy game just like the ones you mentioned. Basement bug is the newest example of that and so are the myriad of other bugs and problem on PC alone, not even counting Console.

    Have you looked at the add-on changes? Have you? The only changes even worth noting are the pins getting changes and the Filthy Blade getting nerfed. The other changes are not even a second of difference. I should be HAPPY that i get .2 M/S while losing a million perks I could use? I should be happy that my power does even less now? Oh goody, I can vault this window .2 seconds faster! That makes up for the fact I LITERALLY GET PUNISHED FOR USING MY POWER!

    You are in denial if you think that this whole community pointing out the issues with this nerf and Legion as a whole is wrong. "Good at identifying problems and bad at solving them?" Cool, then your opinion is worthless too! This change to Deep Wound is NOT good game design in the slightest, and I honestly hope you are joking somehow. BHVR has done many moves that make players wonder if they even play there own game and then you come singing there praises like they are Lords of game design for an obviously terrible change? They should have just removed Deep wounds from Legion and replaced it, not gutted an already weak Killer.

    Oh and in case you haven't figured it out yet. I AM JUST AS ENTITLED TO GIVE FEED BACK AS YOU! This is my feedback. This change made me lose faith in BHVR as a company, and the Devs in it as a whole. Literally nothing you can say in your condescending way will ever change my mind.

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