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Dramatic but this is how I feel now...



  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Well, that's the thing. A large portion of the community considers this to be a buff, not a nerf. And a large portion of the community didn't consider Legion to be the worst killer. A lot of people consider Leatherface, Clown and/or Wraith to be worse. You seem to be making the classic mistake of believing that most people think the same way you do.

    They are listening to feedback. Feedback clearly factors heavily into many of their decisions, like the decision to change how Deep Wounds interacts with the Terror Radius, or the decision to reduce the difficulty of the Tome challenges. But, again, you seem to have this notion that because they didn't do exactly what you wanted them to do, it was a bad change.

    Feedback is always valuable, but if you expect them to always act upon your feedback and give you the exact changes you wanted, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. And if you expect them to act upon your feedback when you spew hyperbole and make an "I quit" post every time things don't go just the way you wanted them to, don't be surprised when the developers get reluctant to take you seriously.

    When you view even the slightest nerf as "Getting gutted/nerfed to the ground", even when they give the character several buffs in many other areas, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get upset. And it tells the developers that nothing will satisfy you, short of breaking the game to favor you exclusively. Be honest, would you have ever been happy with anything but buffs? Would you be happy with buffs if they weren't the exact buffs you wanted? It certainly doesn't seem that way.

    And do you really know what you're asking for when you say that they need to remove Deep Wounds entirely, and create a whole new mechanic exclusive to Legion? As I said before, reworks take a long time. Months, at the bare minimum. The Freddy rework took almost two years. If you want changes to happen immediately, then you'll have to be satisfied with small tweaks.

    Do you know what it looks like when the developers listen to player feedback more than their own intuition and knowledge? It looks like the current mobile gaming market. Everyone just does whatever will get them the highest rating on the app store, and whatever gets them the highest survey scores. Nobody tries anything new, nobody cares about making a quality product, everyone copies everyone else, every game plays the same way, and great games essentially don't exist. Finding even a halfway decent title on the app store (Which isn't just a port of an old game, mind you) is like finding a needle in a haystack.

    But at any rate, you're really starting to take an aggressive tone again, so I'm not going to indulge your emotional outbursts any longer. My advice still stands: The sooner you accept that nerfs and buffs come and go, and you're not always going to get the exact changes you want, the better off you'll be mentally. Grow some backbone. Embrace change.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 2,639

    Apologies but before you edited it that's how it sounded.

    They need to be more vocal with their community on why certain things are done to stop threads like this. They are causing their own community to argue with itself because they won't give some explanations on why they are doing certain things.

    On a side note you need to chill for a minute. Ino your not happy with the changes but trust me getting angry on the forums won't help in anyway. We've all been there with this game but it's better to step back and take a break rather than argue with other community members.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    We agreed to disagree like 3 pages ago. Go away if all you are gonna do is continue to try and call me a wuss. I don't want them to only listen to me. I want them to listen to the community, which they clearly arn't.

    This is the first time i've ever made a post like this, so "Make an I quit post every time" Doesn't apply to me. I'm done discussing this with you. You think i'm some arrogant git that wants everything my way or I will throw a tantrum, and I think you are a condescending fool. So Let's just stop this now before it gets worse.

    Also judging by the amount of threads saying "Why did you do this to Legion Devs?" and "Legion is Dead." and etc, you are obviously wrong that "Most of the community thinks it's a buff." Most would be the ones that don't even play Legion and the very popularity of this thread and my rework ideas threads show that everyone knows Legion is in a bad spot and was made worse.

    Also good job making a whole post based on a completely false view of me, when you don't even know me or want to understand my motives.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    Thank you! Even with the speed the stun makes even traversal with Legion's power is bad in alot of cases.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    Thank you for supporting me in this too. "Slapped in the face." sums up some of my feeling on this.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507

    Honestly though, compared to most big developers, BHVR's communication has been consistently good. The simple fact that they reply to forum threads almost every day puts them miles ahead of most of their competition.

    That being said, developers always have to be careful not to spend too much time talking to their community about their plans and updates, because talking about doing something is not the same as doing it. If they took the time to explain every little change in this update, that alone could take several hours out of many of the devs' work days, and cause a significant delay for their development. Remember, the devs all have a life outside of work, so they have a limited amount of time each day to work on projects, discuss things with their coworkers, and reply to the community's posts.

    If you choose to continue talking with me, I have the right to continue talking with you. If you dismiss all of my arguments as mere insults, that's your prerogative, but again, don't be surprised when the devs aren't swayed by simple outrage. I think you'd be a lot more convincing if you took the time to chill out and sort out all of your thoughts on this matter.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    No problem bro, I think it is how every legion main feels, that effectively know how this killer can be fun/good.

    Not like those guys that think that 4ks will make a killer good. It doesn't matter at all.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    I'll come back to you after work then, if I still care enough to bother.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Exactly. I'm glad you at least get it. You know how much I've struggled to get the Devs to see SOMEONE's idea for Legion to help them. Anyone's.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    Yeah, I've also fought against the nerfs and gave them good ideas on how to fix the legion from the beggining, when the update happened.

    Yeah, you've made a giant discussion with people's ideas.

    These are the reasons that i think that our feedback is ignored and i've lost my faith on behaviour too. They update was in may and we are in december with an even more nerfed killer.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Exactly. With the whole community making jokes about how bad Legion is, and how they have no power.... they nerfed them more. They don't care. They don't listen. I tried my hardest to get then to see someone's idea. BHVR even read that post, you can see it on my wall... and they give us this.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    It just sends me to the original post, not a comment. Also, I've been the first person commenting on it ahaha. I already know the idea and gave my opinion about it.

  • OshiOshi Member Posts: 304
    edited December 2019

    Request to delete the "Suggestion" sub forum. For now as we see you don't care about any feedback suggestion what we done about Legion. You continue with "dumb injustice nerfs" what no one request.

  • CashelP14CashelP14 Member Posts: 2,639

    Yea I understand that mate but they have people appointed to help communicate with the community. It's nice that they give us some information but I think not giving us any reason why really hurts our community in particular.

    We have a very unique community since it is virtually divided into 2 different sides which is vastly different to most other communities. Every little change made in this game is a very sensitive subject to some and I think it would help our community a lot if they explained any changes. I don't want them to promise us anything but I'd like for them to explain some decisions from time to time.

    The example I gave recently was fortnite. They seem to explain with most of their changes why they are making them and if the game ever has any problems seems to address it pretty quickly. I think the fact they reply to some problems and not them all really causes divide in our community which could be avoided.

    Especially with Legion and how they know our community goes mad about him I think it would have been better to just give us some decent reasoning on why certain changes are made.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    Yeah, cause that was to the guy arguing with me that most everyone thinks this is a buff and Devs shouldn't be expected to listen to only me, and that I need to "grow a spine and accept change."

  • supersonic853supersonic853 Member Posts: 2,241

    I love how totems stalls longer then dw technically because it takes what 13 seconds to cleanse a totem? "Oh but legion is made to stall" okay does he go around smacking peoples hand doing no damage and just say "no bad" then run away?

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    We agree, I think for one of the first times. Goes to show you how serious this issue is.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507
    edited December 2019

    Well, I can't say that most of those ideas sound like they'd be a once-and-for-all fix for Legion's issues. Some of your proposed changes (Particularly many of the buffs to Deep Wounds and the rewards for hitting a Deep Wounded survivor) would give Legion the same problem they had before: Not being fun to play against. Others change their playstyle so drastically as to be unrecognizable. Other proposed changes actually appeared in the patch notes, but you seem to have overlooked them.

    You've proposed all these different changes to DW, and in that thread, you complained about the fact that Survivors have no real pressure to mend and can just do gens so long as they stay in your terror radius. One of your first proposed changes is making it so the Deep Wounds timer ticks down if you do any actions other than mending, even while near the killer, so why are you complaining about it when DW now does exactly that?

    The proposed changes I actually like (And which aren't already implemented) are increasing your movespeed as you chain more hits together, and reducing the punishment for missing a swing.

    So they directly took your advice in several places. They buffed the pin add-ons, buffed FF's movespeed and vault speed, buffed the duration add-ons, and made Deep Wounds more urgent and threatening. So why are you complaining so vehemently, and claiming that the devs never listen to your feedback?

    I would think that this thread would have a more positive or neutral tone. "I like X changes, I don't like Y changes, and I suggest Z changes for the next round of tweaks". Is that really so hard? Why go with outrage instead of a rational, constructive discussion?

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    You obviously didn't get the point I was trying to make. That's not all me. It's not just me trying to brainstorm ideas. There are alot of us. I'm upset for all of us. So, I suppose you are allowed to just view it through your eyes and your view, but I hate to tell you that you aren't the sole voice that decides things any more than me. They did take some of the very very general suggestions you pointed out sure, but they also tacked on so many nerfs it made it meaningless. Also the "Outrage" is coming from you basically accusing me of being arrogant and not having a spine to accept change. You tossing all this at me when you know nothing about me.

    It was exactly this that caused my "Outrage"

    "You seem to have this notion that the devs are obligated to act upon your feedback, and incorporate your ideas into their reworks. Trust me when I say: The sooner you let go of this notion, the better it will be for your mental health. When you don't get fussy just because the devs didn't do exactly what you wanted, you'll often be pleasantly surprised by what the devs managed to come up with.

    Good game design is nowhere near as easy as it seems. It takes a lot of brainstorming, a lot of designing, a lot of iteration, and a lot of trial and error to create a well-designed game, mechanic, or character. There are a multitude of factors to consider before you implement any given mechanic or make any given change, many of which are not obvious to the player who actually uses and interacts with the mechanic. And after you're done brainstorming, you usually need to test again and again. Assess your changes and decide whether or not they're accomplishing what they're meant to accomplish, and if they make the game more fun to play. And you'll often have to go back to the drawing board many times before you get something that really works. When you don't do that and try to rush the process, you end up with messy games like Mass Effect Andromeda, and Anthem."

    You accused me of wanting things exactly my way, and that I got fussy, like some little child, when I didn't get it. You even take the time to insult my intelligence. You do not know me, you do not know what i've been through in my 30+ years of life, so I would ask you to kindly not make judgments about me.

    Let's agree to disagree again. Let's just drop this once and for all between me and you. It's going no where and frankly you are a chore to talk to.

  • MonlythMonlyth Member Posts: 507
    edited December 2019

    And you test my patience as well. I have been as cordial, rational and constructive as I can, but you insist on getting your panties in a bunch because the devs didn't do exactly what you wanted, and it wasn't just a straight-up buff to every single aspect of the character.

    I call it like I see it: you're making a fuss. You're causing a needless commotion over a sidegrade to Legion's power, saying that he's now "gutted" because he can't use two easily-replaced perks anymore, and Mending takes slightly less time than before, even though they gave Legion a long list of buffs, including several that Legion mains had been directly asking for.

    If you wanna agree to disagree, so be it.

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