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Fundamentally, Legion is a Poorly Designed Killer

Hey, it's your friendly neighborhood frustrated Legion main here back at it again with another hot take about the state of Legion in Dead by Daylight as a whole. I've been playing the game as both a survivor and killer for a long time now and while I have only joined the forum recently, I've been reading the statements that the developers have made regarding Legion and I feel that there is a huge disconnect between what they say and what is actually going on in game with the Killer.

I've been playing Legion for a long time now as my killer of choice and I think I have a solid understanding of how games go and how their kit works as a whole in the ecosystem of the game. As such, I want this post to sort of serve as a laundry list of reasons why the killer we have now does not work in terms of the gameplay that BHVR has provided to us.

  1. Legion's ability, Feral Frenzy, has nothing to do with the lore of the Legion.

This might seem nitpicking to some, but what about the Legion says that their ability should be to run away like maniacs stabbing people and watching them bleed out? Out of the 5 paragraphs given about the Legion's lore, the only time they are stated to have killed someone was

  • An impulsive decision made by Frank
  • Seemingly their first time ever killing someone (minus Frank maybe) as when Frank drove the knife into the cleaner, "He rushed to her aid, knife in hand, and without hesitating, planted the blade into the cleaner's back.As the group stared at Frank in shock..." That seems a little odd to do if they have enough experience in killing to be labelled as "A band of merciless Killers" by the game. Joey was just doing as he was told, meanwhile Julie and Susie seem like they were forced into it.

Considering you can play as any of the members of the group, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense that any of the members of the Legion would have this trait of bloodthirsty stabbing with of course the exception of maybe Frank. You can't even say that the group grew into it as while they were burying the body of the cleaner, they got scooped up by the Entity.

Looking at the lore you can imply a few things about the Legion,

  • They are a band of thugs who bully, vandalize, and steal from their community. Are they criminals? Yes, of course. Are they feral murderers? No. Even if you include the one kill they all made, I wouldn't call them all murderers. I understand liberties have to be taken as this is a game about killing, but considering how they supposedly do the kills, this does not make sense.
  • They work together

While I understand implementing all of the Legion to work as a unit can be tricky to do, as it stands right now, the Legion as a solo killer running around stabbing people does not fit the lore given and frankly I don't think any other killer fits more poorly flavorwise than they do.

Why is this a big deal you may ask? Well considering that many people who I talk to about Legion think they legit have multiple personality disorder akin to something like Diavolo in Vento Aureo, myself included for a while. They are a group of 4 people yet you only see one at a time, what's even the point of making them a group when the disorder idea sounds a lot better and makes sense considering what you're given in terms of context. Based solely off Legion's power it makes him out to seem like he's insane, an animal of sorts. Why would you ever assume they're a group unless you actively seek out the lore.


  1. Legion's ability is unenjoyable to use as a Killer and against as a Survivor

Let me start off by saying that early Legion was insane and completely broken. I understand that and I won't even attempt to argue that it was good, it wasn't. Games were ridiculously easy as Legion players and horribly unenjoyable as a Survivor. Nobody wants that Legion to come back under any circumstance. That being said, the problem doesn't seem to have been from the fact that Legion was strong at the beginning, but the fact that Legion's power just doesn't lead to good gameplay; evidence which comes from @Peanits who said earlier:

As for mending, previously it was too easy to get stuck in an endless loop of mending (with mending times of up to 20 seconds). This left people mending most of the time which isn't exactly thrilling gameplay. There's no interaction between the killer and survivor there.

This being in regards to the current iteration of Legion and why the nerfs were put in place to Deep Wounds. I think most if not all can admit that Legion is not a strong killer right now, in fact they're probably one of the worst in the game, even at their worst, Legion's ability leads to unfun and unrewarding gameplay, yet the devs are constantly trying to adjust it as if tweaking some numbers around is the way to go.

We've seen Legion at their strongest, and Legion at their weakest, nobody is having fun during Legion gameplay no matter what is done to them. When you're playing as Legion, your goal is to just smack people and waste their time with a status effect that barely succeeds at that goal, and when you play against Legion you just groan and think about how you're going to have so much fun holding down M1 for about 12 seconds when Legion comes rolling by. It is clear that no matter what iteration of Legion we're talking about, the gameplay is stale and uninteresting for either Killers, Survivors and even both sometimes, the stats are not the problem, Feral Frenzy as a whole is.


  1. The recent Legion buffs are irrelevant to the issues Legion is having

To sum it up quickly, the Legion received buffs to their movement speed and vault speeds while in Feral Frenzy and they received buffs to their addons with the pins being a highlight as they were useless garbage before.

Hopefully this essay has convinced you of this fact already but in case you as the reader haven't gotten the picture yet; Movement Speed, Vault Speeds and the Pins were not the reasons why Legion is bad. This "buffs" are nice Quality of Life improvements but they don't at all solve the glaring problems Legion has as a character. The fact that Feral Frenzy is tied to Deep Wounds, which essentially acts as another health state for survivors is garbage and is the main reason why Legion is in the state that they are in now. This very aspect is the problem and buffing or nerfing it is what significantly affects Legion's standings as a killer. You could make Legion move at lightning speed while in Feral Frenzy, they will still be an M1 Killer regardless.


  1. The recent Legion nerfs are idiotic and just punishing to people who still want to play the Killer.

The main nerf I'd like to discuss is the one that made Feral Frenzy attacks not count as basic attacks anymore. I understand completely why this is, BHVR want more consistency as to what is and isn't a basic attack and Legion just wasn't fitting the mold. That being said, doing this change has taken away Legion's synergy with Sloppy Butcher and Save the Best for Last, unarguably some of Legion's strongest perks and often key to builds involving those perks. If Legion wasn't an M1 Killer before, they most certainly are now. There is few if any unique things to do involving Legion's kit, Feral Frenzy is basically worthless in the eyes of any perk now.

The one thing Legion players had going for them was the inclusion of the perk, Nemesis, which was coming with Oni. That is until BHVR nerfed Deep Wounds so that it is no longer tied to a killer's Terror Radius anymore. That which meaning, Legion can no longer take advantage of any terror radius reducing perk or undetectable to assist with their objective. That only leaves me with one question,


What is the point of Feral Frenzy? It cannot stall, It cannot kill, and it barely functions as a way to find other survivors. What are Legion players supposed to do with Feral Frenzy? The devs can't just say "we'll see how it goes" when it comes to this killer, they have nerfed Legion into the ground, they need to come out and tell us what the point of the ability is because right now common consensus is that it has no purpose other than to be annoying and that is not fun for any side.

Fact of the matter is that Legion needs to be reworked, ideally one with flavor to actual lore but at least to a state that is enjoyable to players on both sides of the game. I personally don't have an answer, but guess what, BHVR has a forum FILLED with people offering suggestions and feedback on what can be done to Legion to improve them, here are a few examples.

My personal favorite because it has flavor to the teamwork of the Legion group:

and of course there are many, many more! Please just look at your own forums, take the hint, and just REWORK LEGION. Stop dragging everybody around changing meaningless numbers and actually put in the work to fix the Killer. They are not in a good spot right now and they will never be if you keep this garbage ability known as Feral Frenzy.


Sincerely,

Everybody

Comments

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535
    edited December 2019

    The Former Fanatical Legion Main here to tell you...Go with the Blessing of The Legion. You are doing good work here with this well thought out post. To contribute, I'll give my favorite rework from my massive thread.

    AND NOW for a REALLY good idea from @MongByeolBuddies

    Here's my idea to help with, imo, Legion's two main problems:

    * For killers, that’s getting a second hit and downing the survivor.

    * For survivors, it's having to mend, which is boring and makes Legion obnoxious to go against.

    My solution -- Change the Deep Wound status effect and give Legion a secondary power -- Mob Mentality.

    -------------------------

    Feral Frenzy:

    Hitting a survivor not affected by the Deep Wound status effect during Feral Frenzy applies DW and gives Legion 1 charge of Mob Mentality.

    Deep Wound now applies a 20 percent penalty to repair, healing and sabotage speeds. 

    Survivors now remove the DW status effect by healing to full health, not by mending. DW lasts indefinitely.

    Hitting a survivor affected by DW during Feral Frenzy applies 1 more DW. Survivors suffering from 4 Deep Wounds will enter the dying state. This will be tracked on the HUD.

    Legion cannot use Mob Mentality during Feral Frenzy.

    Legion can have up to 3 charges of Mob Mentality at one time.

    ------------------------

    Mob Mentality:

    Press the secondary power button to use 1 charge and summon a Legion member.

    Any survivor within 16 meters of Legion will hear an audio cue -- a whistle -- when Mob Mentality is used.

    The Legion member will appear 2 seconds later, crouched down in the spot you summoned him or her and wait for any survivor to get within range. When a survivor is within range, the Legion member will lunge at the survivor and attempt to hit them.

    If a healthy survivor is hit, he or she will be injured; if an injured survivor is hit, he or she will enter the dying state.

    Regardless of whether the hit connects, the Legion member will dissipate in a cloud of smoke.

    Legion can summon all three other members this way. If Legion summons a member while all three members are currently on the map, the first member to be summoned will switch to the new location. Legion cannot summon members within 8 meters of another member.

    Survivors within 16 meters of Legion members can detect them by looking in their direction for 3 seconds. During detection, survivors will receive an audio cue. Once fully detected, the Legion members will dissipate in a cloud of smoke.

    If a survivor sets off a Mob Mentality trap, the Legion receives an audio and visual cue. If survivors fully detect a Legion member, the Legion does not receive an audio and visual cue.

    Also, Mob Mentality is a trap so perks, such as Small Game, will work against it.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Add-on changes to reflect the new Deep Wound status effect and Mob Mentality:

    Smiley Face Pin -- Start with 1 charge of Mob Mentality.

    Defaced Smiley Pin -- Start with 1 charge of Mob Mentality. The auras of survivors who fully detect a Legion member or are hit by him or her are revealed for 3 seconds.

    The Legion Pin -- Start with 2 charges of Mob Mentality. The auras of survivors who fully detect a Legion member or are hit by him or her are revealed for 5 seconds.

    Nasty Blade -- Slightly increases the penalty to Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (5 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.

    Filthy Blade -- Moderately increases the penalty to the Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (10 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.

    Frank’s Mixed Tape -- Legion members are invisible to survivors outside of 8 meters.

    Fuming Mixed Tape -- Legion no longer needs charges to use Mob Mentality. MM now has a 10-second cooldown. The Legion can no longer use Feral Frenzy.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    This will allow Legion to still be a rush down killer and buffs them by providing them a tool -- Mob Mentality -- to counter looping, as well as set ambushes. 

    This new change also allows Legion to use Mob Mentality whenever Legion wants (albeit not in Feral Frenzy), and the survivor will only be aware that Legion has used MM if the survivor is within 16 meters of Legion when MM is used.

    The change to the DW status effect also means survivors no longer have to worry about mending. Survivors suffering from DW can heal themselves back to full health slightly slower than normal or the survivor can find a teammate not suffering from DW to heal back to full health without any speed penalty -- making going against Legion more enjoyable for survivors. 

    (This also would get rid of a few not strictly Legion problems: Nurse’s Calling not detecting mending and other anti-healing perks not affecting mending, and killers who can drop their terror radiuses like Freddy and The Pig making the DW timer tick down while still chasing a survivor, which feels cheap.) 

    (Borrowed Time can be changed to something like: After unhooking a Survivor within the Killer's Terror Radius, for 11/13/15 seconds, any damage taken that would put the unhooked Survivor into the Dying State will instead apply the Deep Wound status effect.)

    Plus, I think it would be awesome for Legion to actually play like, you know, a Legion! Lastly, if possible, it would be extremely cool if the teammates you summoned could wear any cosmetics you’ve acquired, making it so you could customize the look of your own Legion.

    And now a variation of the above by @pemberley !

    I propose that we take the same concept of Mob Mentality but instead the member seizes and holds the survivor in place for the player to stab. Every player in the map gets a scream notification, the killer sees the aura too. The grasp is inescapable except through other flashlight or cracker saves, if the survivor has a cracker themselves, or if the survivor “wiggles” like normal and claws at their hand or elbows them in the face - this would disable the trap, I think this would be more in line with Legion, it’s lore friendly, and probably won’t require as much code spaghetti as making accurate ai.

    Which Mong added that the grab could give them either Exposed/Oblivious or both cause they are fighting out of the grab! Even if it didn't there are Add-on ideas that could do it!

  • MiloMilo Member Posts: 5,384

    Legion's ability, Feral Frenzy, has nothing to do with the lore of the Legion.

    (and yes im seriously nitpicking but everything else makes sense)

    Does every's killer ability have something to do with their lore?

  • AstrianAstrian Member Posts: 47

    You can definitely make the argument that the early killers did not have this trait as their backstories are often extremely short and vague if anything, however I'd say past Nurse, every other killer besides Legion has a fitting ability to their lore or character. It's definitely the weakest part of my rant but I felt it should be stated anyway as it is something that the devs should be taking into account when creating these characters. It shows that actual thought was put into these characters and that they aren't just creating "functions" within their game.

    Trapper - Traps: Nothing necessarily lore related but makes sense because that's his name.

    Wraith - Wailing Bell: You got me here, there's no reason why he should turn invis.

    Hillbilly - Chainsaw: "There was never a buyer for the farmhouse. Perhaps because of that sounds of a chainsaw you could hear throughout those hot summer nights." It's the very last sentence of his lore but I'll give it to the devs it fits I guess.

    Nurse - Spencer's Last Breath: He was apparently a warden at the asylum the nurse worked at, but yeah this one doesn't make sense either.

    Huntress - Hunting Hatchets: Finally we get more than 2 paragraphs of lore. This one is easy, Huntress's lore is basically all about hunting in the forest, her signature axe is mentioned many times throughout the story. While the hatchets themselves aren't mentioned, it's not out hard to believe that she could use hatchets.

    Hag - Blackened Catalyst: "Lisa was particularly fond of the charms they taught her to draw for safety and good fortune." "Delirious, she thought of home; she thought of the elders. With her dying breath, she etched the symbols they had taught her into the floor..."In the cellar, amid rotting corpses and disconnected flesh, the elders’ charms were scrawled in blood on the floor." This one is a very good example. It shows why the symbols mean so much to the Hag in the first place and implies how they could've been manipulated by the Entity to create her ability in game.

    Cannibal/Leatherface - Chainsaw: Watch the movie

    Spirit - Yamaoka's Haunting: "The ground shook with her father's footsteps. She knew she was not going to make it, but she no longer cared. She would make him pay, in this life or the next.

    A dark Fog slowly veiled her eyes, but it could not subdue her rage. She would not rest--not yet. The darkness whispered, promising blood and revenge.

    An oath was made and Rin closed her eyes." There's room for interpretation but it implies that she cannot see when the dark fog takes her, similar to how she can't see survivors when she uses her ability.

    Demogorgon - Of The Abyss / Shred: Of the Abyss isn't 100% accurate to how the portals work in the show but they're allowed to take some creative interpretations. Shred is obvious.

    Oni - Yamaoka's Wrath: There's a lot in the lore that references what he does in game, just to paraphrase: He ran around the land, killed fake samurais, crushed their heads with his kanabo, he was generally a very angry boy.

    GhostFace - Night Shroud: Watch the movies

    Plague - Vile Purge: Paraphrasing again, she was a priestess in a church well known for cleansing, she eventually got infected and tried to hide it using her veil and censer to hide her infection. She working attempting to give her followers blessed water and food and then it came out that she was giving them the plague. Lots of vomit, etc. etc. you get it.

    Clown - The Afterpiece Tonic: Clown's knowledge of anesthetics is mentioned several times in his lore.

    Pig - Jigsaw's Baptism: Watch the movies

    Freddy - Dream Demon: In the films, Freddy can really only operate in people's dreams. That's how they did it originally, I'll commend them for committing to the lore but we all know how well that turned out. New Freddy takes more liberties but it's fine and understandable.

    Doctor - Carter's Spark: His usage of electroshock therapy is mentioned as his technique of choice.

    Michael Myers - Evil Within: Watch the movies, he's essentially a slow moving juggernaut. I believe he also introduced the obsession mechanic which really ties into the movies.

    Legion - Feral Frenzy: One of them stabbed a guy once... and then he forced his gang to stab the same guy?

    I understand a few of their abilities past Nurse can be loose interpretations of what they did as they were alive, but Legion is a massive stretch considering throughout the rest of the lore it mentions their unity, camaraderie, and experience bullying the people of their community. It's made very clear in the lore that they work best in a group, that that's where their strength came from. I really don't understand why they implemented a power that only lets they go one at a time, especially considering the lore basically only says that Frank was the guy calling the shots. I've said this plenty of times but legitimately if BHVR made Legion a person with multiple personality disorder it would fit so much better than what they actually did.

    Not even their name makes sense to their power,

    Legion: "a vast host, multitude, or number of people or things" "great in number."

    And here we get a runny boy who goes around stabbing people.

  • AstrianAstrian Member Posts: 47
    edited December 2019

    This is such a good idea, the devs won't use it though because it's too creative and interesting to play against.


    If they would like to prove me wrong, it would be really cool if you could customize every summon-able Legion member.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    They legit don't care. My Thread in general is gonna be ignored cause i wasn't "Calm and collected."

  • ToxicKiller86ToxicKiller86 Member Posts: 9

    To be fair, most of the killers have weak lore. Almost as if BHVR asked a bunch of 6th graders to pen their origin. The Legions aesthetics and abilities remind me of something from The Purge and The Strangers movies...but the thing is, their abilities are as weak as their backstory. Devil may care joe is a sick skin tho.

  • AstrianAstrian Member Posts: 47

    bump

    Also if any devs read this, REWORK LEGION

  • se05239se05239 Member Posts: 3,920

    They've invested far too much time in Legion to just "rework" them (again) at this point. Thanks to Legion and Deep Wound, they've suffered a lot of headaches.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 3,535

    cause they kept doing tweaks that didn't work at all. They need a rework and not a fumbling series of mess ups.

  • AstrianAstrian Member Posts: 47

    Yeah, generally throwing things at a wall hoping it sticks is a good way to waste time. All the time they've wasted trying to "fix" Legion is their faults alone

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