I agree that this needs to be done. It would need to be a buff in one way and a nerf in another to not increase the ceiling. The floor of the nurse needs to go up and the ceiling needs to stay the same.
I think most people would disagree with me, but this is my suggestion. Increase her walk speed to 110 percent. Reduce her blink to 1 blink. Change her ultra rare so that she gets 2 additional blinks but can't blink through walls.
This is all subject to testing. But this would make her much easier to play but would not change her power level overall.
61.99% to 62.5%. Wow, let's have a parade.
That half a percent could easily be attibuted to survivors being distracted by Susie's cute new sweater.
Focusing on the nurse, she has the lowest killrate and requires serious buffing. Now we know why nurse was nerfed to begin with, twice I should add. Some actually got good with her. This completely puts all power in the survivors now because one thing is always never mentioned in balance decisions. What about a survivor getting good? Now put four together that know how to loop and juke and rush gens. A killer performance is always analyzed against the entire population but never the other way around. If the devs had done this, the nurse would have never been touched, AND maps would have immediately been redesigned to make the other killers viable.
Your evidence proves honestly nothing though, you lack percentage of each killer played in comparison. You lack the proper length of time for the buff. Nemesis could be more of a reason for the "buff" than the changes you made to the basekit
While seeing Legion buff was nice, the deep wound change and nerf were uncalled for, the change was but another band-aid fix for poor interaction design, and the nerf was just. . . why nerf one of worst killers in the game?
As to Nurse, the survivor can pretty much run in a straight line to maximize the time wasted by the killer trying to catch up, putting a cooldown on a cooldown is not really good or interactive game design. Besides that, the goals it aimed to achieve were to "Increase the window the survivor has to break LOS, While still making it fun for the killer", It fails at both, firstly, the survivor does not have any more room to break LOS than they had before, the Nurse can still re-acquire LOS as soon as they exit fatigue, what the survivor does gain is an obnoxious amount of distance whilst the Nurse is obliged to wait for the cooldown, and that distance forces the Nurse to go through 2-3 blink rotations to catch up, which leads to the second point, most of the time you are just waiting for the fatigue or the cooldown if not both, staring as the survivors gain distance from you while you wait for 3 cooldowns is not most people's definition of fun, it just makes it so you feel handcuffed, artificially limiting your potential as Nurse.
Conclusion: The Legion buffs were nice, however, the rest of them were simply poorly designed.
I can't be convinced that the butchering of Legions power is anything but a nerf. Does it feel better to use? Yes. Is Deep wound an actual joke of a status now? Yes. Does Legion still get stunned for 4 seconds when leaving Feral Frenzy? Yes.
I can't explain why his stats went up (maybe nemesis + PWYF making M1 killers a bit more usable) but he certainly is in a worse state than before.
You have said a lot of stuff but failed miserably at addressing my point.
You're looking at data without context. That's the point.
The Nurse is the type of killer who should NEVER have the same kill rate as easy-to-play killers, not on her current design. Not even at red ranks, no, because the skill threshold for getting at red ranks in this game is extremely low. If the Nurse has the same kill rate as easy yet powerful killers, it means that her skill cap isn't gating her performance properly. Because new Nurse players will perform poorly due to her difficulty, so if her kill rate is high it means the good Nurse players are roflstomping with her no matter what. That's how win rates work on every single PVP game. She's objectively the hardest killer in the game to start getting decent results with, and her ceiling is also arguably the highest.
Her kill rate at red ranks in November, according to the devs, was 65%, which is perfectly acceptable for a killer of her difficulty which was just brought in line after her changes. She should never, ever, under absolutely any circumstances have the same kill rate as someone like Freddy. Her skill cap should never allow that. That's just balancing 101 for any game.
The only way to fairly compare Nurse's kill rate to other killers is by taking data from hardcore Nurse mains, which can't be done sadly. And no, I don't mean anectodal evidence from Nurse mains who come complain in the forums because they can no longer 4K by existing. I mean actual, hard data.
What I was saying originally is that taking data without context would also make it seem like this game is killer sided. But the majority of the community agrees this isn't the case. This game isn't killer sided, Nurse did not fall into low tiers and data should not be interpreted without context. It's as simple as that.
EDIT: for reference, take the Clown's data to see what real weakness in comparison to other killers looks like. He's extremely easy to pick up for anyone who can play regular M1 killers, yet he has considerably lowest kill rate than even other basic killers that are considered weak like Trapper, Legion or Doctor.
There is no logic behind saying the nerfes were too hard on Nurse by knowing why the stats are like that all the time. Nurse will always be on the bottom, cause shes hard to handle. I had so many baby nurses in redranks like never before.
I thought you guys said kill rates didnt mean much ??
Yeah I think clown could use a little love based on the kill rates, and then everyone probably needs to be adjusted down if they're aiming for 2k average. Obviously fix the emblem system too so it doesn't feel like you've gotta 3k+ to rank up at red ranks
I've never seen Nurse in this month. Please disclose how her usage rate changed. I feel Nurse nerfing was completely failed.
And what do you base her “doing well with” on? I have played against like 2 Nurses at red ranks on PC since her nerf.
TBH I feel like anything between 60 and 70% can be healthy depending on how hard the killer is. I think the reason why it's consistently above 50% is because all survivors escaping is pretty rare, at least in my experience. It's easy for a killer to secure a single kill in the end game, so in my observations at least 4 kills is a far more common scenario than 4 escapes. So what would generally be a 50% average ends up being like 62,5% maybe? I feel like a number around that would be fine too.
I see what you are saying to an extent. However, you are missing something that nurse mains have been trying to say and are being ignored. Why spend a million hours learning nurse and have an UNFUN experience but not necessarily do any better than Freddy? Or Spirit? Huntress? Hillbilly?
Data from hardcore nurse mains is still not good data unless you compare it to hardcore survivor mains. And hardcore survivor mains in SWF against a hardcore nurse player. Neither was considered when nurse was thrown under the bus.
I think that 62% would probably be too high - I'd be fine with anything around 50-60% because you're never going to have perfect balance.
Something we should both keep in mind is that 25% is basically the floor for killers and 75% is something of a ceiling due to the hatch.
But again, I think they need to adjust the emblem system first for sure.
Yes, we have no data of hardcore killer or survivor means. All we have is red ranks data which means very little. Which is why you shouldn't have drawn any conclusions about Nurse balance from these numbers anyways.
And please notice I never talked about how fun she is to play - and neither did you beforehand. That's an entire separate discussion from balance. What you did was say a killer was underpowered based solely on data without context.
And why are you saying that they didn't consider that data when Nurse was changed? That data doesn't even exist in the first place. How on earth were they supposed to consider it?
That doesn't mean people can't do well with her. It just means she's not freelo anymore. Not everyone can play Nurse, and honestly the vibe I got from Nurse players here is that they prefer it that way. I get it, she's meant to be the high skill cap killer you have to dedicate your time to be good with. However, that comes with a price. She's inevitably gonna be hard to pick up and get results with if you don't put in the time and practice.
Beforehand you could be a mediocre Nurse and still get consistent 4ks. That's just wrong considering the difference between a mediocre, hell, even a good Nurse player from a great Nurse player.
Because the OP, which is a dev, was strictly looking at the killrate which was only fair to apply it to nurse as well. Nurse shouldn't be exception just because she is so hard to learn.
That's my whole complaint: she was ruined when the data didn't even exist. They strictly made a knee-jerk reaction to the loud collective voice of the survivors and some killers that didn't care about nurse. This happened in 2017 that left half of her addons useless because survivors could not handle the fact they couldn't pallet loop a killer for five gens as they were doing to Wraith, Hillbilly, and Trapper. Now we have a double-nerfed nurse that is so underperforming and with a handicap artificially in place so she doesn't outperform other killers such as Freddy, Spirit, Huntress, and Hillbilly to name a few of the better ones. Nurse, being the difficult killer she was, deserved the slightly higher killrate than the other killers. Before the nerf, she was only slightly higher at red ranks.
In the period between 2 Nov and 2 Dec what was Legions kill rate at Rank 1? You said after the 2 Dec their kill rate was 71.2% which we don't know if it's up or not from the previous period.
I love seeing stats so thanks for this.
You were never able to do well with Nurse if you were mediocre, barring omega blink.
This x10. People love using the data to say Spirit is over performing, but then ignore data when it comes to Nurse. Spoiler alert: people only use data when it supports their argument.
For those concerned about the Nurse's killrate, I'd just like to put it out there that Peanits said (about a month ago) that her kill rate has been steadily climbing back up since the changes, at least on PC, as people get used to the new Nurse.
So if we're basing her quality on killrate alone, she may yet turn out perfectly fine.
She's not underperforming by a long shot. She has 65% kill rate at red ranks. If any numbers are gonna matter, it's those ones. Even though they're not that important either.
And yes, she SHOULD be an exception when analyzing data because she's hard to learn. That's how any PVP game with data works. It's not that complex of a concept to grasp.
And honestly, if it was a "knee jerk reaction" it would've happened years ago because Nurse had been to strong for a long while. And no, you can't say survivors "can't adapt" to her. The game has been out for over 3 years. Telling people who've played this game for years to "just adapt" is exactly the same BS as telling killers to "just apply pressure" vs SWF in big maps. It's a dishonest argument. At the very least her add-ons had to be changed. A huge part of the playerbase also thought her base kit should be changed. and unless you happen to secretly be lowkey among the best killer players in the world or whatever, your opinion that people should "be better" is worth just as much as the opinion of people who thought she should be nerfed harder than she was.
This community would be a lot better if people were more willing to accept balance changes. Not everything is "nerf survivor, buff killer" yknow.
No one credible was using only that data to say Spirit was overperforming. Again, context matters. Using a dishonest argument to fight another dishonest argument doesn't really add anything to the discussion.
And yes, you could absolutely be mediocre with her and still do well. The fact that non Nurse players used her to climb (sometimes without Omega Blink or extra +range) was enough evidence. You're not supposed to do that well with a high skillcap killer without putting in the time and effort. If that happens, it means the killer is overtuned. Like she was.
My point wasn't about whether this study is good or bad. My whole point is more data taken over time is better than data taken in a short time period. That's statistics 101. The medical example was just a method to explain this point.
I understand nerfs need to happen, but doesn't there need to be some line in the sand where survivors need to grow up and not DC if they don't get their way?
They're already testing DC penalties so that line is already there, you just missed it
Um... the devs themselves said Spirit was over performing based on data. Please show me a mediocre Nurse who climbed without omega blink. Or is that argument based purely on speculation too?
It was an argument based both on observation and personal experience, since I did exactly that back when she was busted. I know it's anecdotal, but it's still better than claiming no one did that because you hadn't encountered that.
And they said they took the data into account, but they have many more parameters to make decisions like that. Please find a dev post where they claim to have used exclusively those numbers to say she was oveperforming.
The issue is DW, its literally nothing now
On the stream, they directly referenced the numbers. How else are we supposed to interpret that?